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#233567 - 01/21/07 12:17 AM Re: Punishments from a Sensei [Re: tkd_high_green]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Anybody ever heard the saying "rules are rules"? For punishments or corrections to be consistent, the adults should have the same types of corrective measures that are employed with the children, otherwise, you're just "picking on the kids" with your discipline.

I have certain things I expect of students... whether they are 16 or 36, and part of that is an understanding that the rules are for everyone. We have a society where people think that the rules only apply to everyone else, which is why we have so much chaos in daily life.

If the dojo is truly "the place for learning the way", then "the way" must include consistent teaching and not a parallel universe for everyone who plays there. If "yes" means yes and "no" means no, then rules can be enforced and you can pattern behavior using that as a tool. The first time it means "maybe", you lose the discipline of the argument for having rules.

Everything in life needs a framework in which you can operate, and "the disciplined life" must include discipline... and if you need punishment to enforce it; then, so be it. I've had students before who refused to help clean the dojo because they thought it was "beneath them"... so they got their cleaning rag, and were allowed to sit out classes until they joined in the cleaning of the dojo with the other students... no training, no watching the others train... nothing except sitting in the dressing room with their rag. When their parents complained, I told them that if I couldn't trust them to do their part with such a simple task as cleaning, I couldn't trust them with any kind of deadly skill.

Martial discipline is "military discipline", and while you don't have to run a class like a drill sergeant, you still have to enforce discipline by some method when it isn't used. I had one teacher who had an "effort rag", and if you didn't put forth effort in class, you had to clean with the dreaded "red rag" after class... and NOBODY wanted to stand out like that during "down time" of training.

What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

#233568 - 01/21/07 10:05 AM Re: Punishments from a Sensei [Re: Chen Zen]
MikeC Offline

Registered: 09/23/05
Posts: 130
Loc: Kingston Ontario
I agree. This is not the Army. If an adult student/beginner wants to learn they will pay attention. The worst punishment is not to be taught.

#233569 - 01/21/07 10:28 AM Re: Punishments from a Sensei [Re: tkd_high_green]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3119
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Laura:

Pushups as benign punishments... suppose its possible, but

I understand both what MC is saying (I believe) and your approach as well. Provided I was coherent I have commented sufficently my perspective is plain.

Bottom line for me, PE is not what class is about... a nice byproduct perhaps... but respectfully completely irrelevent in the manner MC suggested.... (though the Hitler reference was excessive IMV. Militant would have sufficed....)

Children.... medals/straight-jackets for teaching em all around.


#233570 - 01/22/07 08:50 AM Re: Punishments from a Sensei [Re: wristtwister]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3119
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Wristtwister:

How did your explaination fly with said parents, (or new students) prey tell? It is a very old school method of a very different era...?

As for your other assertions, what does one do if the training is NOT based on the Samurai Bushido Code (eg the way), nor based on the militant training models of the 50's???

I love your stories and your consistency despite my potential challenges with some of the underlying approaches... no offense meant!


#233571 - 02/10/07 12:43 AM Re: Punishments from a Sensei [Re: Ronin1966]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
let me tell you that I'm an old guy with "old school ways". They've worked pretty well for me over the past 40+ years of training, so I don't see any reason to change them to be "trendy". Since I don't teach martial arts for money, anyone is welcome to come to class or leave as they see fit. If they stay, they have to follow the ryules...

I've had some run-ins with parents who had "perfect children"... and I "explained" things to them the same way I have here... they're welcome to stay or go... they'll just learn more if they stay and follow the rules. Some of them have been in and out of every MA school in town...

If your school doesn't follow Bushido training, it's their loss, because much of the essence of martial training is found in "the code". The right mindset, the right teaching, the right attitude about both life and training should be part of what the school instills into it's students. Ryu gi, or "right thinking" is an integral part of the discipline of martial arts, and if that's not there... neither is the actual essence of the training.

As for the "50's models", they are much older than that... and they still work. That's what being "oriented" is all about... a change of mind toward your subject. Much of the training is rote (repetition), some is intellectual (thoughtful), and much of it is esoteric (learned without training... simply absorbed).

Take a look at our public schools... they have been constantly "evolving" since the 50's as well. Today, we graduate kids that can't read, write, or balance a checkbook. Many of them can't hold jobs because they don't know how to work, or do anything other than "get along"... which they don't do well either.

I didn't like everything I was taught, either in school or in martial arts... but I learned the lessons. There was structure, information, and practice. Without that, you have to have the training factored into your genetic code... and way too few people have that for it to be a way of passing on the training.

What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

#233572 - 02/11/07 10:13 PM Re: Punishments from a Sensei [Re: wristtwister]
BloomingLotus Offline

Registered: 07/21/06
Posts: 75
I always thought the potential we get from our gentic code was predetermined .. as with the ways to best to develop that from individual to individual.. different lessons for different ppl at different times for different developments.. to potentially come together to be all it can be. YoUu develop this way = this and Ii develop thiis way equals this.

It's the greatest joy of a sensei or sigung or shifu to discover that a student can kick their ass ( or even keep up or provide a challenge would be nice enough) .. it's got to be a sweet mercy to have someone to teach who might fill that ... I don't find it overly surprising that toward ashe got older,. that sensei, as his own need to train so hard to not be beaten declined, copped some curious or even accusing sideglances and comments ..dedicated students who are willing to develop are often a teacher fantasy that for the benifit of both for reality's sake, entails the testing .

I think it maay be as simple a case as 'catch up and we'll go from there".. ' go dbl time and we can do it sooner ' .

the beauty of it all though .. is that if you don't liike the lessons you supposedly of your freeist spirit are there to learn... then you can just walk away..( even if there arre cosequences of either that you would no doubt possibley weigh up before deciding,) . .. diirectly after your lecture on distiguinshing the differences of what you want and what you do not. .

I'm kind of the mind personally that 'i'm getting there as fast as I can because that sounds fun and anything you can do to help would be greeat thankyou ..sir/ miss.' .. and if a student or less skilled person said the same to mee , then I'd like to think that I'd believe them and want to help themm out equally as much by whatever method I thought would be most effective and lovingly considered and appropriately nurtured for that individual at that point in time... again knowing that they 're free to leave should they not want to pursue.

At worrst.. iMo.. because we do so much thinking when these things hit .. a hard lesson is a good opportunity to discover exactly how much we want what and how much your prepared to dig for to give to your choice..even if it's something different altogether.

I guess if doesn't work out or take me some place good, I can always feel abused and mistreated or ripped off or what ever and leave for greener pastures sometime later. So far so good though I guess.

Blooming tianshi Lotus.

Edited by BloomingLotus (02/11/07 10:42 PM)

#233573 - 09/25/07 05:07 PM Re: Punishments from a Sensei [Re: BloomingLotus]
sheepingly Offline

Registered: 09/07/07
Posts: 92
Loc: Southern California.
I learn best with Sensei's are encouraging that don't dish out harsh punishments (45 minutes worth of embarrasing lecture infront of the whole class). At the dojo I go to the main sensei is positive 100% compliments you when your doing great and takes pride when your improving well. If you do something wrong like for example I was a little too rough with a male student when doing a ankle lock in BJJ he thought I was going to break the guys ankle off (I didn't even put pressure but that's what the Sensei thought I was doing) anyway, he told me in a nice way to not too much pressure because I could cause a serious injury. And then he made an announcement in general (didn't name names) not to be too rough and cause serious injuries or doing something that might cause permanent damage.

Was I ashamed by his comment to me? No. Because he was right. Was I ashamed by his announcement? No. Because everyone needs to know that sort of thing. But like I said he's more about praise than anything and his theory is, like someone in this thread said, the ones who half crap things will eventually get bored and leave and the ones who are dedicated and serious about learning follow the rules and pay attention. Plus he has faith that we aren't jugheads.

Our other Sensei, Bobby, he's more macho, military style but he's nice as well. He's more likely to do the 20 push-ups punishment thing. He likes picking on people (in a nice way) who have been flaking in class. My sister flakes alot in KB and he knew that, so when she finally showed up after 2 weeks of flaking he kept picking on her (in a funny way) when she was half crapping crunches that if she keeps half crappin' it that he's going to make her do 20 more.

Our other Sensei, Sayla, he's more serious of an individiual and more strict. He is nice though but more strict and less friendly than all the others.

Then there's this one other Sensei I don't remember his name, he's kind of new. He teaches the Elite Combatives class...he's a big huge dude and kinda scary lol...everyone pays attention in class lol. But he's really nice but he's kind of like Bobby in the whole stict military sense.

But overall at the dojo 95% stick around after attending one the classes for a few days. Because yes they can be strict but they aren't going to rip you a new one like that infamous "Cobra Kai" in KK movies.
Me: "Yeah but you guys beat me up alot..." Sensei: "That's okay, we've gotta toughen you up..."

#233574 - 10/07/07 02:20 PM Re: Punishments from a Sensei [Re: sheepingly]
karate_popo Offline

Registered: 09/27/07
Posts: 154
Loc: NYC
in my class we have to do pushups if we forget a basic japanese word, that we should know, or if we forget the style of judo, jujitsu or karate that we study.....yelling only comes if we disrespect the sensei.. on one occasion pushups were threatened-100!!- but not given out.. being that i'm the only female, that might have been the reason. and he knew i coudln't do them anyway.. our class is made up of adults ages 21-45... so it is not too harsh to hand out such disciplines i think, plus it is usually only the ones that are younger that get it.. the other day however, we were all 'punished', due to some of the lower belts not knowing their stuff, and we were made to kneel on knees, and tuck toes under and stay that way for a couple minutes.. sensei has never hit us.. nor would he ever, but even he sometimes i do not agree with how he yells at us in front of other students, the teaching that he gives us, outweighs this.. i have never thought of leaving....

#233575 - 10/20/07 01:29 PM Re: Punishments from a Sensei [Re: Kysogkram]
BurningUpstairs Offline

Registered: 10/20/07
Posts: 6

In a perfect world, punishment shouldn't be necessary, as everyone are of course 100% concentrated all the time, doing their very best every time and interested in every minute detail of their martial art.

Back in the real world there are a lot of different people coming to a dojo, some people who cant keep concentrated and are easily distracted, not everyone's interested in some of the Kihon, etc.

I think that discipline in a class with a lot of people is essential to keep the class effective, and one of the means of achieving this is punishment.

Have you ever thought that there might be biological reasons why people show different levels of alertness?

The need for attention is a practical one, given the military structure of the training, and a narcissistic need from a sensei's perspective.

In a perfect world, somebody would kick their asses in a way these ignorant fools so rightfully deserve. That includes yours.

#233576 - 10/21/07 01:25 PM Re: Punishments from a Sensei [Re: BurningUpstairs]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5844
Loc: USA

Yeah, that makes lots of sense.

So to show your dislike for a teacher "punishing" students they should have their asses kicked to teach them a lesson.

Which is the same "reasoning" that the teachers are punishing teach them a lesson.

Which is what your objecting to and suggesting people kick their asses for.

Sure the whole punishment thing can easily cross a line...but "punishment" is also how people learn.....its how you learn NOT to touch a hot stove after all.

People are training in fighting art after all and not being "alert" in class can be a real hazard..both to the student and everyone around them......I really don't want to wacked in the back of the head with a bo because somebody has a "biological reason" for not paying attention.

Sorry if that sounds harsh.....but people not paying attention can get people hurt....usually OTHER people.
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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