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#233517 - 02/25/06 10:40 PM Re: Punishments from a Sensei [Re: MikoReklaw]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Exercise punishment. I think I can safely state in the 33 years I've been training, neither I or any of the instructors I've trained with in multiple styles punished anyone.

The closest I could suggest is when I inform new students (in the youth program) that if their concentration waivers I might require them to do 5 pushups to help focus their concentration, and then have the entire class drop to the floor to show them what I mean.

But this isn't punishment because it is just a tool to help them retain focus on their training, and it's literally been years since I've ever had to have a student do so.

A large part of the reason puishment is unnecessary is I teach for free, inform the students their first night they do not have the freedom to interfer with any other students training by their lack of concentration, and if they can't focus I just dismiss them from class.

I teach karate to teach karate, not to spend one instant disciplining anyone. And you can only teach those who want to be taught. If there is an attention problem in the student and the isntructor doesn't know how to head it off before it becomes a problem, or if they don't know how to contain the issue, or if they don't do what they know, they're just incompetent.

And it doesn't matter where the instructor is from or what 'traditions' they have behind their actions.

Unfortunately it takes work to teach, to shape a students awarness, and most of the time most instructors don't do the real job.

Nope punishment is simply a sign of an incompetent instructor, every time.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#233518 - 02/25/06 11:33 PM Re: Punishments from a Sensei [Re: Victor Smith]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Victor:

I accept and agree with your sentiments... point of clarification, if I may??? Only asking for five pushups solely in order to help "refocus"... do you join them in doing those 5?

Simple curiosity... no deeper meaning intended...
J

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#233519 - 02/26/06 06:47 AM Re: Punishments from a Sensei [Re: Ronin1966]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
My simple answer, besides explaining this to the new students I haven't had to use it for so many years I don't know when the last time happened.

A large part of why problems happen is simply the instructor isn't controlling the class. In far older times the class was small, or one to one, and those 'situations' couldnt' happen.

I've always kept a small class structure trying to emulate the feel of old style karate. And these days' I've transitioned the program to another instructor, where we tag team the program (say 12 to 15 students show up a class). Thus because we're teaching directly the students aren't really given the chance to loose it.

Of course combined the two of us have 55 years in the arts. I've been teaching kids non-stop 52 weeks a year for 27 year, the instructor is a basketball coach and one of the program directors at the Boys and Girls Club so he's constantly aware of each of the students, and each an every section of each class they're actually studying karate.

All of which contribute to not having to even help them refocus. That concept came from the days when I ran the entire class myself and was focused on training 15-20 members of all ranks simultaneously. And even then it was never done but once or twice a year.

Of course you had a deeper meaning and just as clearly I've cleverly sidestepped your question. Which is a clear demonstration how to handle smart alecs....GRIN.
The truth is ongoing bouts of arthritis make it difficult for me to do a lot I used to do....but the instructor I transitioned the program to does get down as I used to.

But back to my point, an instructor must be in control at all times and the students must not be given the opportunity to wander. The study is too critical, they can't afford the lost time, even if the art is just to allow them to have the fun of training.

It's also part of the reason why nobody in our program can qualify to be an instuctor without a minimum of 15 continuous years of training, and then if their interest mainfests, undergoing a mentoring program following a youth student from beginner to sho-dan, so they really know what the instructors role is, beyond standing in front barking out what to do.

BTW as full time martial hobbiest I consider our mild standards far less than what I would expect a competent professional program ought require. My simple standards are an attempt to try and reach what Shimabukuro Zempo once explained about Okinawa when I once met him.

Simply put he said on Okinawa nobody would train with a ni-dan. Everyone wants to train with a seichi-dan (or above). By those standards my own are modest, but working for a long time.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#233520 - 02/27/06 10:43 AM Re: Punishments from a Sensei [Re: Victor Smith]
tkd_high_green Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/16/05
Posts: 1031
Loc: Vermont
The distribution of pushups is a standard disciplinary action in our class, but most of the time it is more of an incentive to do better. If the instructor doesn't like the technique or feel we are trying our hardest, then pushups. However in those situations, we are always told what it is we need to work on, and it is never done in anger. There are times when I've even given myself pushups because I wasn't happy with my own performance of some technique.

Every once in a while we might get smacked upside the head or shoulder, most often for some off the wall comment directed at our instructor, but never hard enough to hurt, and always done in humor. My instructor has a fantastic sense of humor, and we are always trying to push his buttons. The trick there is to make the comment and get out of his reach before he can retaliate.

Most everyone in our school is respectful of each other, and so having to really discipline anyone is rare. With older students, little more than a change in the tone of voice and a verbal warning is necessary to maintain a safe and controlled environment. On the few occasions where this has occured, it has almost always been because of someone lashing out in anger, and almost always involving younger kids. In these situations. These kids were removed from class for the remainder of the class, or sent to timeout (depending on the age of the kid).

Laura

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#233521 - 02/27/06 11:09 AM Re: Punishments from a Sensei [Re: tkd_high_green]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Laura:

And what exactly do pushups however you classify them have anything what so ever to do with improving my XYZ martial technique??? Physical exercise for strength I can do at home. Politely I waste time exercising when I could be practicing XYZ specifically.... because at class I have partners and experience available to correct, work upon technique. At class it is the US things... (2 or more people) my time is best spent...

J

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#233522 - 02/27/06 11:22 AM Re: Punishments from a Sensei [Re: ShorinjiSeisan]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
I find it odd that someone who does a long-term study of violence would raise a hand to a student, or even train the type of student that would require punishment.

Quote:

What are your feelings regarding the practice of a Sensei who deals out punishments to adult and child students? At what point do you protest or take leave of the dojo?



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#233523 - 02/27/06 04:24 PM Re: Punishments from a Sensei [Re: Ronin1966]
tkd_high_green Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/16/05
Posts: 1031
Loc: Vermont
Quote:

what exactly do pushups however you classify them have anything what so ever to do with improving my XYZ martial technique???




1) Gives you something to do while waiting in line.

2) Its a good incentive to try harder. Works really well with the kids, especially when they aren't giving it their all. Especially when they are just coasting through the class, or when they aren't training to their level. Works really well on the adults too...

3) We also hand out "pushup bonuses" which can be used for credit to get you out of having to do pushups later (only good for the current class), when you do really well on some technique. (I tend to get really worried when my instructor hands out a lot of bonus points at the beginning of class)

4) increases the number of pushups you can do

5) Makes kids pay attention to what it is you are not liking in their technique.

6) The number of pushups handed out indicates how pathetic the technique you failed at was, and bonuses or lack of pushups indicate how good the technique was.

7) Teaches teamwork. When working in a group, if the instructor doesn't like one persons technique, he'll drop everyone for pushups.

8) Since tkd is 70 percent kicking, its always good to get a little upper body training in, any chance you can.

If you don't think it works, try dropping and doing 10 or 20 pushups every time your instructor tells you to correct something.

Laura

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#233524 - 03/03/06 06:48 PM Re: Punishments from a Sensei [Re: tkd_high_green]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Laura:

Let me start by simply saying, this is a friendly discussion-debate on my part, ok?

<<1) Gives you something to do while waiting in line.

A class size (with lines long enough) such that push-ups while waiting are even possible???

<<2) Its a good incentive to try harder.

And spents the energy they could use doing XYZ better, no?

<<4) increases the number of pushups you can do

Its nice that my arms are toned, or whatever but completely irrelevent (IMHO) past a very, very basic point. It is preferable that people are fit versus unfit, but if I am "stopped" by whomever, it shall be because they are more effective & efficent, not because they are more fit.

<<6) The number of pushups handed out indicates how pathetic

The punishment route... politely I propose that people who are grown-ups and capable of making informed choices that punishment is not necessary... again IMNSHO .

<<7) Teaches teamwork.

Ummmmmmngh....... ok, you lost me, what does a bad motivational cliche have to do with martial arts study???

<<8) Since tkd is 70 percent kicking

Ok, this part I get. Prefer to keep my feet on the ground personally... if you can hit with it I guess it works.

<<If you don't think it works

Words are unnecessary and a look suffices. But, our class time is spent very rarely on purely physical exercises eg jogging, pushups, etc. Those things I can do by myself... without any help, or pressure if/when necessary. I've got a ridicilously complex and obscenely subtle Okinawan art which requires partners to decipher best. I can practice and polish my flaws whatever they might be at home... but in class time is better spent practicing the art we all want to explore...

No time for pushups here... grab my hand, and here we go ~... need to shrink the arc of that movement, or you'll crush me....~ more careful examination of details concerning the habits of our art and no time to spend simply trying to make my shirt, pants, etc. fit better in the name of physical fitness... (ie a by product not "the" purpose)

Politely & I hope respectfully...
J

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#233525 - 03/05/06 07:42 PM Re: Punishments from a Sensei [Re: Ronin1966]
tkd_high_green Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/16/05
Posts: 1031
Loc: Vermont
Quote:


Let me start by simply saying, this is a friendly discussion-debate on my part, ok?





Gladdly. I'm always game for a friendly discussion-debate.

Quote:


<<1) Gives you something to do while waiting in line.

A class size (with lines long enough) such that push-ups while waiting are even possible???





Class sizes are usually between 9 and 16 students, however we only have 3 bags. So there is usually just enough time to do 5 or 10 pushups before its your time to go.

Quote:


<<2) Its a good incentive to try harder.

And spents the energy they could use doing XYZ better, no?





If 5 or 10 pushups are that draining to you, perhaps you should add more of them to your workout

Quote:


<<4) increases the number of pushups you can do

Its nice that my arms are toned, or whatever but completely irrelevent (IMHO) past a very, very basic point. It is preferable that people are fit versus unfit, but if I am "stopped" by whomever, it shall be because they are more effective & efficent, not because they are more fit.





I train to train, to improve on whatever it is I'm working on, whether or not it was a kick, punch, or pushup. I hope I never have the opportunity to need what it is I'm learning.

Quote:


<<6) The number of pushups handed out indicates how pathetic

The punishment route... politely I propose that people who are grown-ups and capable of making informed choices that punishment is not necessary... again IMNSHO .





Its only punishment if it feels like punishment. Since the pushups are handed out with a sense of humor, with no sense of fear or intimidation, I am completely comfortable with receiving and dishing out pushups. The fact is, I've given myself pushups if I feel the technique warranted it. It keeps me honest and helps to push me to do better.

Quote:


<<7) Teaches teamwork.

Ummmmmmngh....... ok, you lost me, what does a bad motivational cliche have to do with martial arts study???





Peer pressure. In a friendly environment, knowing that how well you do will affect others, it causes you to push yourself even harder than you normally would. Especially as you get tired from a hard class.

Quote:


Words are unnecessary and a look suffices. But, our class time is spent very rarely on purely physical exercises eg jogging, pushups, etc. Those things I can do by myself... without any help, or pressure if/when necessary. I've got a ridicilously complex and obscenely subtle Okinawan art which requires partners to decipher best. I can practice and polish my flaws whatever they might be at home... but in class time is better spent practicing the art we all want to explore...





Different art, different focus. We do a lot of various kicking drills. However, it is also very rare for us to get pushups if we are working on something technical or advanced, but if we mess up on something as basic as a variation on a turning kick... However, getting the "look" or that particular "tone of voice" from my instructor for badly performing some techinique is far worse than any random set of pushups.

Quote:


Politely & I hope respectfully...
J




ditto

Tag you're it!

Laura

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#233526 - 03/12/06 01:36 PM Re: Punishments from a Sensei [Re: tkd_high_green]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Laura:



<<between 9 and 16 students, only have 3 bags. usually just enough time to do 5 or 10 pushups before its your time

Its a different approach... seems geared towards physical fitness rather than technical mastery. Can you see my perspective? If I use my energies and time for fitness neither is available to practice having been expended elsewhere. And its not the quantity which I find debatable or have an objection towards rather the underlying purpose of them I find questionable.

Consider for example, you utilize Hyung, Poomose (Whatever particular term utilized to describe "forms")? If the time no matter how little or great were spent rather than on "fitness" instead on examining them with profound scrutiny... and doing so for extraordinary lengths of time... you/I have explored something we are unable to discover solo. Spend enough time doing so with classmates and we gain insight into what's & why's of their specific presentations. Given energy & time we no longer "play on the surface" but understand the wisdom embedded in such forms. Given time we understand hints, whispers which explain wonderful nuances...

Repeated interactions, partner drills, "application", engrain via meaningful repetition "martial habits". I hypothesize fitness is a byproduct of training not the other way around. If I am to be "punished" send me back to the "hyung/poomose mines" . Have me continue the particular technique causing assorted trouble... pushups were not the problem, the technique, drill, exercise was...
working on something else will not fix the original problem

Politely & I hope respectfully...

J

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