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#233537 - 03/16/06 12:41 PM Re: Punishments from a Sensei [Re: Ronin1966]
WarblyDoo Offline

Registered: 03/15/06
Posts: 24
Loc: Vancouver, Canada

What would you say to practicing XYZ say a dozen more times versus pushups, or other PE class exercises in terms of corrective behavior?

Doing the pushups is always followed by repetition of the technique. The pushups themselves are negative reinforcement to ensure the mistake itself is not also repeated. I used to have a coach who always said "Practice make perfect imperfection." If you do not reinforce the mistake that was made it will be repeated and the more a mistake is practiced the harder it is to break out of it.

I'm sorry I'm not sure what you mean by "other PE class exercises"

#233538 - 03/16/06 01:05 PM Re: Punishments from a Sensei [Re: ShorinjiSeisan]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3119
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Shorinjiseisan:

<<Somehow, I don't see Funakoshi Sensei forcing 200 pushups out of a 45 year old man with a blown shoulder . . . do you?

At that point if confronted in such an authoritarian manner "200 pushups" I would and then leave right then and there. I am not a child and would not risk the injury to myself by being foolishly blase. If the teacher refuses to understand the danger... that's too neanderthal for me.

But some might thrive in that environment... not for me!

#233539 - 04/21/06 11:50 PM Re: Punishments from a Sensei [Re: ShorinjiSeisan]
Jeff_G Offline

Registered: 04/15/06
Posts: 223
Loc: Midwest
I always taught a rather loose class(compared to the militant types).
If the chatter got too loud for me to be able to teach, I started counting 3,2. If I got to 1 the next words from me were "One hundred side kicks...for the whole room." I only needed to do this a couple of times before the other students started shusshing the noisy ones.
It wasn't meant to be mean to the class, just to get their undivided attention.

#233540 - 04/22/06 05:15 AM Re: Punishments from a Sensei [Re: Jeff_G]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Some of the tactics I've heard in this thread gave me the shivers. I can't tell which tactics are applied to adult classes and which are for kids.....and I'm afraid to ask.

Everyone is aware of where the push-up punishment mentality comes from right? The US Army and Marines. whenever something becomes so widely accepted, it tends to re-write history for it's own means. I've heard sensei in the past say 'we have this kind of motivator since this is a traditional dojo'. traditional? if the 1960's is considered 'traditional' I suppose.

the fact is, a good instructor doesn't need to dicipline during class. If you need to 'count to 10' or some kindergarten nonsense like that, then it just speaks to how interested your students are in what you have to teach.

instructors use forced discipline to demand respect... whereas real sensei command a room by just teaching. classes are too short for dealing with that crap.

here is one tactic I've seen effective: A very qualified sensei was teaching class one time, and a couple senior students were goofing off and not paying attention. The sensei bowed to the class and calmly told everyone while looking at the senior students, to give him a call at home when they were ready to learn...then he just left. lol

very effective...and since it was directed at the senior students, the attentiveness during class had a trickle down effect to the newer students.

#233541 - 08/11/06 08:51 PM Re: Punishments from a Sensei [Re: ShorinjiSeisan]
mskajukenbo Offline

Registered: 08/11/06
Posts: 12
Loc: bay area california
need more information on how you wre an individualist? i mean,sit ups, essays, lectures, ect...are common....
did you disrespect him in front of the class? or is he just insane/has some really intense karma with you?

meeting with your teacher privately might be a way to resolve your concerns...

#233542 - 08/17/06 03:02 AM Re: Punishments from a Sensei [Re: ShorinjiSeisan]
Kendo_Noob Offline

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 22
Loc: Wisconsin
We have these at my dojo, if you don't listen well or come in late, you have to go in the corner and do 100 swing repititions (men suburi) then my instructor watches to make sure you're not getting sloppy. And if you are, you have to start all over.
The MKC Sam Schumacher

#233543 - 08/17/06 03:17 AM Re: Punishments from a Sensei [Re: Ed_Morris]
Mr_Heretik Offline

Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 1074
Loc: Bronx NY, USA

here is one tactic I've seen effective: A very qualified sensei was teaching class one time, and a couple senior students were goofing off and not paying attention. The sensei bowed to the class and calmly told everyone while looking at the senior students, to give him a call at home when they were ready to learn...then he just left. lol

Thats pretty cool of him. What I don't understand is why students get punished for not performing something correctly. My school is much like the military school mentioned in the first post, where effort is a big factor. We're only punished if we're being lazy, not if we are having trouble with something. Aren't you there to learn anyway?

#233544 - 08/18/06 03:49 AM Re: Punishments from a Sensei [Re: Mr_Heretik]
faarkuin Offline

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 4
In our club if you mess about you get about 20 pressups in front of the whole class, if you carry on messing about after that you will get it again and made to do a bit of hard pad work, if you still mess about after that you have to teach about 10 minutes of the class so you know how hard it is for the instructors!!! After that you get kicked out lol

#233545 - 09/12/06 07:15 PM Re: Punishments from a Sensei [Re: Ed_Morris]
mskajukenbo Offline

Registered: 08/11/06
Posts: 12
Loc: bay area california

when we talk about 'punishment' we are really talking about spirit (not the soul-spirit kind, the fighting-spirit kind).

Everyone seems to have different learning methods that work well for them, but not as well for others. The trick is matching how you learn best to an instructor that teaches that way.

everyone knows the stereotypical 'negative' instructors...from the nightmarish to obscene to the rediculous. image: kobra-kai.

but here are some of the different positive teaching methods I've been a part of and exposed to:

There are 'militant' style instructors, when attention to detail, show of spirited respect and 'can do' attitude is what they try to foster. not much time for thinking in class, it's just 'do this and do it EXACTLY this way'. later (after class) you can ask why. during class there are no questions and no talking. dicipline is strict but not unfair. you get hit during class, but not excessive and not out of masocism. sparing is hard and spirit is encouraged over skill/technique.
This learning method is good in the strength and spirit development, but lacking in the mind/tactics/meaning development. In that regard, it's a bit shallow and only a surface of the Art. IMO.

Another type of teaching/learning method is by allowing students to dicipline themselves. The ones who don't show a desire to learn or don't show respect or completely lack self-discipline get less attention and eventually drop out from boredom. This kind of class is a 'lead by example' model as oppossed to 'drill seargent'. It's not passive or less spirited, but the spirit comes from a different place. the drill seargent draws your spirit out by using your fear. The 'lead by example' instructor draws your spirit out with your admiration.

Another type is passive-agressive. The type that don't dicipline by giving tasks (pushups,etc) or yell or embarrass, etc. They can dicipline with a look or a few words of disapproval. even with a firm 'suggestion' you are doing something wrong can snap you into never repeating that mistake again. This attitude in the students can only come from an instructor that has the respect of the student. so the student feels he/she doesn't want to 'disappoint' their teacher. The spirit which can be drawn from this is the greater of the other two I mentioned. again, IMO. but for young pre/teenage years, sometimes the drill seargent can be a perfect fit....and later as the student develops and matures, a more 'think and feel for yourself' approach is best.

just from my point of view.
p.s. does anyone object to me moving this thread to 'Teaching and Learning' ?

What a great posting of information!
I am planning on printing this one up and inserting into our next newsletter. I so agree with the idea of teaching respect or values to others via personal demonstration.

Regarding 'punishments' on students: my question is why? especially those who are the original writer on this post who at 45, was given a 45 min lecture and push-ups despite a bad shoulder! Can we say sadistic cult leader boys and girls?

I am no expert but have some minimal experience teaching. I Personally discovered, having taught our school's children's classes for a few years, that the punishment system could be counterproductive. I would assign jumping jacks, push-ups or sit ups when students wouldn't pay attention, disrupt exercises, or fail to show an honest effort. Usually it would be just one or two who maybe lacked the maturity or mental focus to commit to seriously train...or worse...their parents forced them to come to class.

Giving these students some options:
1. to switch to a different lower-level class
2. work on their behavior/class performance through parental involvement and/or private lessons (some had learning disabilities)
3. Inviting them to seek another sort of school/study martial dicipline altogether as we were unable to accomodate him/her.

this approach miraculously eliminated any need for dicipline! what really worked best for me was engaging them, as people with individual needs and respecting and honoring their needs as well as the needs of my class as a whole.

I think punishments via enforcer tactics take way too much from actual learning...I also think severe punishments can harm one's development more than help, often crossing into abuse and victimization.

Furthermore, I do not want to herd dicile sheep...or automatons..or groupies looking for a guru. I teach because I truly enjoy watching the process of learning; watching people find answers, achieve personal goals, grow and develop their own sense of confidence, personal power, and physical fitness. Being a small part of the learning process gives me hope, makes my own meager existance in this too-oft god-forsaken world a little more meaningful..

#233546 - 01/03/07 04:12 PM Re: Punishments from a Sensei [Re: Kysogkram]
shadowkahn Offline
anti-stupid crusader

Registered: 01/03/07
Posts: 234

Things such as yawning

that's a bad idea. Not many people can suppress a yawn - -heck most yawn just thinking about yawning. I bet you yawned reading this.

And with the lack of sleep most people get these days, I don't have a problem with someone yawning in the dojo.
"Belt mean no need rope hold up pants" - Mr. Miyagi, RIP.

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