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#233351 - 02/26/06 05:06 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Victor Smith]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
'The value of course is if you can bind that study into actual training'

Totally agree wiht this and have to admit that I have to keep ensuring that this is the case, personally i found some great lessons that have impacted my karate from my poor attempt at research, mainly net based. Certainly alot of help in understanding my karates roots and history, which for me is part of the deal.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#233352 - 02/26/06 09:03 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Victor Smith]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
All valid points Victor... especially the point of the Chinese motivations for proving such links. If they could, surely someone would have by now.

about translators...
In addition to the mainstream/professional translators and researchers ...Funakoshi, Mabuni, ... Goodin, McCarthy, McKenna, Higaonna, et al. there have been some amature translations (which one could argue have less vested reason to 'adjust' interpretations to a particular favor...but I'm just suppossing, not accusing).

like some of the people who translate and make available but don't publish or sell:
http://museum.hikari.us/books/
or
http://uk.geocities.com/sanzinsoo/

not to mention the people who conduct individual interviews and translate the content. (however, less 'independantly' if sponsered by a magazine editor)
http://www.doshinmartialarts.com/interview.html

but now I'm off-topic. The answer is: yes, I'd like to meet up in the spring for a seisan study group

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#233353 - 02/28/06 09:52 AM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: shoshinkan]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Shoshinkan:

Hummmmmmmmngh.... generic research, or even scholarly research (in English) specific to our arts and its kata are quite challenging to find!!! The internet has much information, but "proof" is another question entirely!!!
I can find multiple sites which make completely ridicilous assertions in one of my "parent arts" re: Seisan kata. Yet as to "proof", or even a decent presentation of support for the idea/s presented... are lacking. The standard sentiment being ~...you believe us because we say it is so... and was told us by XYZ (who said the same thing)...~ becomes an endless amusing cycle...

Question if I may??? When you find some assorted answers whether concerning the meaning, or merely the presentation (eg Seisan Kata)... how will you connect THEM with the presentation which you possess??? In some cases, many perhaps... there is a tangible difference between what you are doing, what you understand... and what someone else are presenting...

How do you resolve the variations, or differences??? Is not the core questions always.... ~...how did we get THIS... and why is it that way, not the older way...~ I love research, particularly if someone else does it and we get to borrow their results... but how do you interact the variations & explainations you may uncover with what you already more intimately understand....?

Merely musing, hopefully coherently,
J

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#233354 - 02/28/06 10:53 AM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Ronin1966]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
I'm guessing, because I've never done any comparison study of any kata other than slight variations within my own....but the commonality between versions (I would think) has to lay within the principals of each version.

If kata X has many principals dealing with escaping techniques....and kata Y has mostly principals dealing with various defenses against a flank attack coming at you, it would be a much harder sell to see the common denominator between them.

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#233355 - 02/28/06 11:45 AM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Victor Smith]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5821
Loc: USA

Folks

Discussions like this are one of the main reasons I really like this site/forum.

Just wanted to say "thanks" to all involved.

Excellent reading, and sparks a number or questions.
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#233356 - 02/28/06 12:08 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Ronin1966]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Hi there,


Well first its important to remember that this kind of research supports not replaces my dojo training, very key that is.

I work to the system of gathering everything, cross referencing statements/ideas, looking at the source of those ideas ie respectable or not, and then adding a big slice of what I feel is 'sensible' based on my own expierience.

once at that stage i run things by a small group of my Seniors who then give me their opinion, and if all that sticks i try and apply the relevant info into my training, very slow process and all guided by my Sensei.

Most of it is involved around the historical development of karate and whilst interesting may not have a direct impact on my actual training, however some little bits most definatly do have an impact - an example being the work im doing in the hand formations area - impacts my kata in a small way and in my view gives a far more accurate version of 'older' kata, if you catch my drift.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#233357 - 03/02/06 10:33 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Ronin1966]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I believe that side by side comparison are informative they show and add to views on other possibilities for the techniques in each form. Side by side form comparison you find movement and techniques that not taught or taught differently in basically the same system Okinawan/Japanese or even Korean. And most certainly Chinese systems. It is a fun and informative process.

Naha-Te Seisan and Shuri-Te Seisan will defintely have differ feel, flow and complexity, meant for a different level of insight. Both are very poweful and useful forms.
_________________________
DBAckerson

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#233358 - 03/04/06 11:13 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: shoshinkan]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Shoshinkan:

<<an example being the work im doing in the hand formations area

Tell us more of this "hand formation" business, (particularly if it pertains to Seisan kata...)? Are you talking about variations of hand positions within a singular kata? (ie look the same but are not) Are you talking about variations of finger positions in specific fists? More please....

J

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#233359 - 03/04/06 11:29 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Neko456]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Neko456:

<<Naha-Te Seisan and Shuri-Te Seisan will defintely have differ feel, flow and complexity, meant for a different level of insight.

How so? Something beyond the generic large-power vs. the small person power and emphasis? The generic Goju vs. the Shorin expreessions? What do the words reference in regard to levels of insight?

Side by side I agree can be interesting but I suppose myself I worry potentially there is also no end of "side by side" I might perform and not gain clarity, insight? End up doing the investigation of anything I can find specific to Seisan kata and go... but hey what about THAT expression...
and theirs... oh don't forget their variation of that sequence...

How do you prevent that phenomina <sp.?>?
J

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#233360 - 03/04/06 11:36 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Ed_Morris]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Ed:

<<I've never done any comparison study of any kata other than slight variations within my own....

Variations from within your own ryu?

How do you determine the principles if we're not spoon fed them? Behind, escapes... are those the assorted "templates" which the kata expresses throughout, correct? The whole kata (in this particular case) asks the question all right what does Seisan kata say, layer, hint, whisper about attacks from behind, from its beginning to the end.... different template being escapes (hand correct?)

Are there more templates IYV?

J

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