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#233361 - 03/05/06 06:00 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Ronin1966]
shoshinkan Offline
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Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
think of all the basic hand positions that are generally taught, most of them in 'modern' karate are not as they should be for effectivness (mainly due to sports karate focus and lack of using the art), much of my research in this area is of Chinese origin to find out the correct formations of nukite, hiraken, ipponken etc etc................(animal styles is a good clue!). Then of course I can build these back into my kata and also condition the formations, its alot of fun.
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#233362 - 03/05/06 11:44 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Ronin1966]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
yes, variations within a Ryu, lineage has a tendancy to fork. (except maybe some back country places that haven't outlawed incest yet. )

Goju Ryu has many branches in it's tree. read up on the history of Goju and you'll understand why. learning Seisan from Miyagi in the 1920's was not the same as learning Seisan from Miyagi in the 1950's. what changed? the student.

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#233363 - 03/10/06 05:18 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Ronin1966]
Neko456 Offline
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Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
How so? Something beyond the generic large-power vs. the small person power and emphasis? The generic Goju vs. the Shorin expreessions? What do the words reference in regard to levels of insight?

In the Goju verison it looks/feels like gung-fu in the Shorin verison it looks and feels like graceful shorin Karate the techniques are intermediate to basic (not the concept because the basic is the advance at one point).

But in the Goju version for example there is a upper cuting throat rips (usually not discussed unles of the system but were family here) not performed in Shorins version there are other upper level techniques that divided the level of complexity in the two Kata with the same name.

Doing each I feel a different purpose and know why they are placed well in each system rank syllabus, in my opinion. Its no biggy its just so.


Edited by Neko456 (03/10/06 05:25 PM)

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#233364 - 03/11/06 01:32 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Neko456]
Ed_Morris Offline
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what specific versions of Seisan are you familiar with?

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#233365 - 03/12/06 12:17 AM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Ed_Morris]
Neko456 Offline
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Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
The Okinawan Goju-ryu versions and one of the Shorin-ryu version, I think its Bushi Matsumura's.

What versions do you practice? Goju-Kia's and what else?


Edited by Neko456 (03/12/06 12:17 AM)
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#233366 - 03/12/06 01:33 AM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Neko456]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
I don't know Goju-kai or any other Japanese Goju versions.

as mentioned before, I practice Higaonna-Seisan.
specifically:
Meibukan Goju variant (M. Yagi line)
Kodokan Goju variant (S. Higa line)

(Yagi and Higa might have learned Seisan from Jinan Shinzato or from Miyagi, but Miyagi definitely got Seisan from Higaonna)

The two are practically identical but differ in tempo and slight changes due to interpretive movement. to the observer, one might say one version looks stylized and the other looks sloppy. the principles of the body mechanics are nearly identical.

Quote:

Doing each I feel a different purpose and know why they are placed well in each system rank syllabus, in my opinion. Its no biggy its just so.



you do know there are many more than just 2 versions, yes? did you bother to read the thread from the beginning?
you may want to read again...to just say the goju version vs. the shorin version doesn't really mean anything to anyone who has studied Seisan.


so to get the thread back on track...lets say we have examples of each version to work with...how would someone go about synthesizing a common denominator? would it be by looking at the individual principles in each and keeping all the commons? then you'd have to look into the variations of each of those principles and come up for a likely technique. This would be a bit a like taking the info we had on Higaonna changing Sanchin from open to closed hand, and combining that info with Uechi-ryu's version (open hand-first sequence), along with other versions and changes thru time/master... and arriving at the most likely scenario of seisan's first sequence to be open hand.

The opening sequences are fairly straight forward...open hand in sanchin-dachi, is probably how the original starts. what about after that? (in the version I do, the next sequence would be simulataneous parry/grab behind the neck and knife-hand strike to side of head, then eye rake).
whereas uechi ryu does a double parry and goes right for the eyes? (just going by a drawing, so I'm guessing). but yet hangetsu appears to double parry and double strike the neck with double first finger strike?

how would someone even begin to synthesis that?...well, of course knowing the history of each kata would help - maybe those are the pieces I'm missing in order to see it....

I might be over my head on this...it's almost like you'd need a humongus wall map with timelines and lineages to keep the differences straight....yikes


(I'll ask a math genius friend of mine how he would solve a puzzle like that...maybe the process could be automated somewhat. ...or maybe it's not that mechanical and needs the 'fuzzy logic' of someone who knows all versions and histories.)

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#233367 - 03/12/06 02:44 AM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Ed_Morris]
Neko456 Offline
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Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Quote:

You do know there are many more than just 2 versions, yes? did you bother to read the thread from the beginning?
you may want to read again...to just say the goju version vs. the shorin version doesn't really mean anything to anyone who has studied Seisan.




I practice one of the Shorin-ryu versions of Seisan the Bushi Matsumuras version, I was told. So Yes I know there are many versions of this kata, and anybody that studied Shorin would know or be close to knowing which version by my statement. Theres some many version its easy to be lost but some Shuri practictioners would have a close idea. Sorry for losing you, its hard to generalize theres so many versions in shorin. I haven't seen all the versions of this kata from the Naha nor in Shuri, the point I was making is that theres a big difference in the two branches.
The example of Shotokan version is close to gojus and its also a upper level form not like the kyu level version. So thers obvious difference within each system.

Automatly if you know the version I spoke of you know one starts in Sanchin two hands the other Zenkutsu or low stance one hand.

I know Goju-kai (I am sorry for assuming) and Goju-ryu (your sequence is similar to ours; in the Shorin version it twin phoinex eye punches & spear hands) have slight variations and probably slight differences within each of these same systems. In Goju some learn it at Shodan others a Sandan or where ever. I'd say the Higashiona-version is the stylized version the throat movement is very graceful.

What do you mean sloppy and stylized? Jerky movement, off timing or flow? I've seen 1 version by a Eurpoean Goju-Kai stylist with all mid-level kicks???

Yes I know there are many versions of Seisan especially in Shorin-ryu. A Seidokan Instructor stated that its one of their basic katas 7th kyu I believe.

I read this thread and it was interesting.


Edited by BrianS (03/12/06 04:18 AM)

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#233368 - 03/12/06 10:10 AM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Neko456]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
'sloppy' was probably a poor choice of words. today, kata seems to be taught with precise movements...this has to be at 45 degrees, the hand in line with the shoulder, don't extend hands past the sides, etc ...especially with embusen. well, imagine kata where rules and precise geometric movements and pauses in the kata are replaced with movement to get the job done. as a result, it looks less exaggurated with no gaps/pause between techniques.

someone might call it sloppy since it won't win any medals in a competiton, but the movement is closer, if not identical, to a particular application of what it could actually be used for. It shows a deeper level of understanding the kata than just precise stylized movements.

I think this is the way (and source of confusion) about kata in general. first, a stylized and exact geometric pattern is taught, then later in training, after the application potentials have been covered, the person practices the kata with less geometric movement and closer reflects the application potential.

to make it more confusing, whenever you buy a book or DVD that has 'bunkai' in it...there is a good chance it will be applications that were force-fit using the stylized kata movements. or, they are often the stylized kumite used just for training and not intended to directly translate into combat/self defense....but they help train aspects of it. so it's not useless, but it has to be kept in mind there are deeper layers.

what has happened is, too many instructors have opened up shop before completeing their study...so the stylized kata is the one that propegates - and over time, the more advanced study is lost in the mainstream. This is something I've suspected, but didn't really see it until fairly recently. I'm still only scratching the surface.

There is merit in having a training version and an application version. one is for teaching and learning principles, the other is for using.

Something to consider in the exercise of deriving a generation-prime Seisan.

having said that, it appears (to me) that the UechiRyu version is the least stylized and should hold a great deal of weight in this Seisan exercise. ...then again, I'm only going by photos, video and lots of premature guessing.

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#233369 - 03/13/06 07:14 AM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Ed_Morris]
shoshinkan Offline
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Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Of course Seisan will vary between, well each karateka let alone systems etc etc.

In my mind we have 3 distinct versions to look at -

1. Shorin ryu version, Matsumura
2. Goju ryu version, Miyagi
3. Uechi ryu version

Thats a fair cross section of main resources regarding seisan, for me anyway! Of course we could expand that list ALOT, but personally i see little value in that as the styalistic changes become more apparent and could dilute the 'core' message, which to me is what is the Okinawan seisan message before styles?????????
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#233370 - 03/13/06 02:40 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: shoshinkan]
Victor Smith Offline
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Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
I think the number of versions of Seisan cover a wider range than just the three versions offered.

From Matsumura
Matsumura No Seisan
Matsumura Orthodox Seisan (Soken)
Kyan No Seisan
Shorinji No Seisan
There is another version too.
Seibukan No Seisan
Shimabuku No Seisan
Itosu No Seisan
Funakoshi No Seisan

From Hiagonna Kanryo
To'on Ryu No Seisan
Goju No Seisan (many sub variations)
Mabuni No Seisan (Shito Ryu)

Tomari Traditions
Tomari No Seisan
Odo No Seisan

Matoyashi No Seisan
Motobu No Seisan
Agagaki No Seisan (McCarthy)

Uechi Tradktions
there are two different Uechi variations on Seisan
Paganoon Ryu No Seisan

It's unfair to lump them together in the quest.

The simplest basic analysis is the underlying embusen, the pattern they all share.

1. Essentially a row of techniques going out.
2. A turn
3. A row of techniques coming back
4. A "+" pattern of techniques.

IMO this much is present in all the versions. Then the issue is the embleshment, the flux, the tidal flow of the form, execution changes, and additions.

If you start looking at the techniques you are getting into the flex of the art, but if you look at the floor, you're closer to the origins (IMVHO).

Every one of these variations is a complete art in themselves. No source version is necessary. But there can be further analysis towards universal underlying application that spans the versions (propriatory analysis of my own). Much simpler than the detail most commonly sought.

Just my thought, but Seisan Prime might be the inner essence of all the above.
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