FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 20 Guests and 4 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
SenseiGregT, sagat, JFawkes, pluckysaga39, sgtdemeo
22911 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
Dobbersky 5
AndyLA 5
Ed_Morris 4
futsaowingchun 3
ergees 3
September
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4 5 6
7 8 9 10 11 12 13
14 15 16 17 18 19 20
21 22 23 24 25 26 27
28 29 30
New Topics
2014 World Championships Chelyabinsk: The Gallery
by ergees
09/01/14 03:51 AM
Biu Tzu- Snake hand strike
by futsaowingchun
08/27/14 09:02 PM
Chum Kiu 2nd section applications
by futsaowingchun
08/20/14 09:54 PM
2013 World Championship Rio: The Gallery (HD)
by ergees
08/19/14 05:22 AM
Chi Sao demonstration
by futsaowingchun
08/14/14 10:57 PM
Decent Fight channel
by FrankyFruits
08/07/14 09:19 PM
2014 European Championships Cadets Athens: Videos
by ergees
08/07/14 10:00 AM
Life goes on....
by Dobbersky
08/07/14 05:59 AM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Bartfast
08/05/14 04:18 PM
ITF TaeKwonDo or Shotokan Karate????
by Dobbersky
07/10/14 07:14 AM
Recent Posts
2014 World Championships Chelyabinsk: The Gallery
by ergees
09/01/14 03:51 AM
** Introduce Yourself! **
by Zombie Zero
08/29/14 10:50 PM
mindfullness meditation
by log1call
08/28/14 02:39 AM
Biu Tzu- Snake hand strike
by futsaowingchun
08/27/14 09:02 PM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Ed_Morris
08/26/14 09:58 PM
The Karate punch
by Ed_Morris
08/26/14 09:27 PM
Chum Kiu 2nd section applications
by futsaowingchun
08/20/14 09:54 PM
2013 World Championship Rio: The Gallery (HD)
by ergees
08/19/14 05:22 AM
attacked from behind
by AndyLA
08/16/14 04:59 PM
ITF TaeKwonDo or Shotokan Karate????
by VDJ
08/15/14 05:46 PM
Forum Stats
22911 Members
36 Forums
35573 Topics
432484 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 2 of 9 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 >
Topic Options
#233331 - 02/23/06 12:53 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Joss]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Thanks for that, interesting!
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

Top
#233332 - 02/23/06 12:59 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: WuXing]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Im happy to accept that Seisan is based on a very old Shaolin form, however it is uniquley Okinawan as we train it(Karate). It seems that the link with Tiger style is strong, which would lead to seisan being an entry level form, if we follow the Shaolin order of progression.

Yes of course numbers have alot of symbolism and this to could be a link. There is a theory that the Goju orthodox 'old' kata list follows the Buddhist numbers, I dont have the detials to hand but could dig them out - interestgly that theory puts Gojushiho in the Goju set, at 54.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

Top
#233333 - 02/23/06 02:38 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: shoshinkan]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
this is a new entry, it outlines Seisan kata and it's versions pretty well:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seisan

keep in mind, wikipedia accepts correction submissions. if you see something wrong or would like to add, just edit and submit. make sure your info is good and has a source (if applicable).

Top
#233334 - 02/23/06 03:01 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: shoshinkan]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Jim,

Seisan's position in various systems depends on the history behind the system.

Isshinryu's Seisan, a derivative of Kyan's, became the intial kata because Kyan was following an older Shorin tradition where people began with Seisan.

Itosu derivative systems (like Shotokan) placed Seisan as an advanced kata because of their development of Pinan/Heian and Naihanchi/Tekki kata for beginners, then they used their own kata curricula.

When Goju became somewhat standardized in the 50's Seisan became and advanced kata in their tradition.

Uechi originally only taught 3 kata (till the later 50's or so) and Seisan was the 2nd kata, after Uechi Sanchin).

Of course the placement of beginning Seisan kata practice is relative, the real goal is of course long term advanced execution, in any of the systems, and that's where Seisan gets very interesting.

From what I've found the Chinese Seisan link will always be an open question. Yes many Chinese systems did use numbers for form names, but I have yet to see a Chinese form that resembles Seisan's in any of its incarnations. Till such a form is demonstrated, personally, I'll remain open to just the possibility.

That doesnt' mean possiblitites don't exist. For example I can show Eagle Claw applications of Seisan, but it' would be a long strong of the imagination that Seisan was an Eagle Claw derivative.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

Top
#233335 - 02/24/06 01:25 AM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: WuXing]
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
Quote:

If Seisan is an original Shaolin form, then the number thirteen would be Buddhist symbolism. Buddhism has lots of numbers of things. 13 could be the eight-fold path and the five precepts. I don't know if there's anything that is 13 by itself.




Thats interesting eight-fold path and five precepts. Could you elaborate more?
I've heared many sources claim seisan represents 8 offensive and 5 defensive moves, totalling 13 techniques or moves.
13 also represents a lucky number in China.
To my knowledge it is not linked to buddism or buddist principles like sepai, sanseru, useishi or pechurin.
Mccarthy places the roots in monk fist boxing, lion boxing, tiger boxing. (see bubishi)
Motobu Choki places seisan origin in China in his book 'watashi no karate-jutsu'.

Seisan-dachi is referred to the stance used when delivering the uppercut in the goju version by some schools. It's a shiko dachi with a straight front foot and slightly out of line stance (to keep balance) with upper body in direction to front foot. JKF Goju-kai used to do that but changed to Jundokan version (shiko dachi).
IOGKF uses seisan-dachi. Not sure about Meibukan and Shorei-kan / Shodokan but I believe they use seisan-dachi too.

It's supposed to represent a fumikomi geri (down foot stomp kick) while first blocking a kick with the shin.

Top
#233336 - 02/24/06 05:53 AM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: CVV]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Just some info -

im not going to post eight-fold path and five precepts as that wouldnt seem apropiate, however a certain British writer, Nathan Johnson Sensei did once write something like -

Buddhist Numerical links to kata

Sanchin (3 conflicts)
Rokushu (6 Hands)
Seipai (18 Hands)
Sanseryu (36 hands)
Gojushiho (54 steps)
Superinpai (108 hands)

Now of course this doesnt invalidate kata that represent other numbers or names, but its an interesting theory and one that perhaps links in to the development of the Shaolin martial traditions?
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

Top
#233337 - 02/24/06 07:56 AM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: shoshinkan]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
I believe the significance of the numbers can be found in Chinese philosophies and religions. also, have a look at the history of mathematics in China...there is some correlation to 'the magic of numbers'. every culture has superstitions (historic and current) based on numbers/numerology.

Finding the significance of why Seisan is '13' might be nothing more than an exercise similar to the study of why '13' is considered unlucky in the west. A few interesting theories with the Knights templar, etc but nothing concrete.
I think the real answer lies in how/why people believe such superstition and why/how it's propegated into lore. and how widespead lore has it's own 'power'. lore has no power when only few believe it.

but as far as the kata Seisan itself, I don't believe it's name will gain insight into better technique or uncover hidden principles...but you guys already knew that...

Top
#233338 - 02/24/06 08:09 AM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Ed_Morris]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
I do think that the naming of kata is important, as it reveals the mindset of the practioners. Or, really, what is considered to be a proper mindset if one wants to get all the benefits from the kata. Naming is like paying homage...in this case to Buddhist ideals.

Top
#233339 - 02/24/06 12:00 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Victor Smith]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I believe there is more to the reason why Seisan is placed differently in the Shuri syllabas compared to the Goju version it has to do with the fact that the Goju version is more complicated it comprises elements Tiger, Dragon and Crane.

As this quote from Ed's Seisan's memo states 'The Goju-Ryu (Naha-te) version of the kata, Higaonna-no-Seisan, is a more complicated and impressive version that contains close range fighting techniques such as short-range punches, low kicks and directional changes to unbalance the opponent. Typical of Goju-Ryu it contains slow movements performed under tension, as well as strong fast techniques. Although rooted in the same form, significant differences can be seen in the Goju version compared to the two versions mentioned above.

Though it states they have the same roots??
_________________________
DBAckerson

Top
#233340 - 02/24/06 01:56 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Neko456]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
well, first, wikipedia is not the lay of the law...it's just the best info of the people who bother to maintain it. sometimes complicated details are left out and general statements are put in it's place until better, more solid and sourceable/credible info comes along.

second, 150+ years of separate lineage will do that to a kata. the reason why this one is interesting is because it has so many separate lines of development from early on. More than likely, Higashionna is the one responsible for making goju's version distinctive as was mentioned. Other style versions I've seen do appear to be more fundamental (in appearence), but still recognizable as the same kata.

Top
Page 2 of 9 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 >


Moderator:  Cord, MattJ, Reiki 




Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Self Defense
Offering stun guns, pepper spray, tasers and other self defense products not available in stores.

Pepper Spray
Online distributor of self defense supplies like videos, stun guns, Tasers and more.

Spy Cameras
Surveillance, Hidden Cameras, Nanny Cams, Digital Recorders, Spy Equipment, Pocket DVR's and more

Stun Gun
Wholesale Directlhy to the Public! Stun gun and Taser Guns and personal protection products. Keep your loved ones at home safe!

 

Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga