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#233321 - 02/23/06 07:05 AM Seisan - The Universal kata ?
shoshinkan Offline
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Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Just thought it would be nice to discuss any aspect of the Seisan tradition as it is an important foundation level kata for most Okinawan systems, and appears in most mainstream Japanese systems.

From my persective im fairly happy that it is a very old kata, origionally from China and likely to be heavily influenced by the Tiger systems.

I look at Seisan as the first true application driven kata as it is very broad in its teachings, and is obviously teaching solid combat principles, a truly great masterpiece.

Regarding the name translation, im happy that it simply means '13', be- interested in your views on this and perhaps what the -13 actually is trying to convey.
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#233322 - 02/23/06 10:30 AM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: shoshinkan]
Joss Offline
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I never connected the name in regard to a number - just as regarding the stance.

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#233323 - 02/23/06 10:31 AM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: shoshinkan]
Victor Smith Offline
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Jim,

Seisan is a foundation level kata in some Okinawan systems (such as my Isshinryu practice) but in many others it is an intermediate study (such as uechi) or an advanced one such as in Goju Ryu. All these traditions possess similar and different practices.

The most interesting use of the meaning of '13' I've heard goes back to a chinese stylist that claims the embusen of the form (isshinryu's) forms the symbol for '13'. But this is beyond my personal knowledge to explain as I don't do Chinese or Japanese.
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#233324 - 02/23/06 11:37 AM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Joss]
shoshinkan Offline
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actually I have never worked or seen the 'seisan' stance, can you give me an idea what system you practise and a description of the stance.
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#233325 - 02/23/06 11:41 AM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Victor Smith]
shoshinkan Offline
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Hi Victor,


Very true that the Seisan study is set at different levels between systems, I wonder why that is?
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#233326 - 02/23/06 12:01 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: shoshinkan]
Ronin1966 Offline
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Hello Shoshinkan:

Where the kata came from, what it "meant" I cannot know. All I can do with certainty is explore the kata as I understand it currently. If I understand the what & why's of how we demonstrate it... I am far, far ahead of the game.

Why it might be called 13...how can we possibly know? And once "knowing", what fundamental value will that hold? Some strangely contend "13" refers to the number of breaths done during the kata. (in & out =2) Others actually maintain there are 13 opponents defeated. Some propose it is a philosphic designation (ie Buddhist/Taoist) whereby that number has unknown serious importance.

Whatever we believe... will that knowledge help deciper the movements, subtlities, nuances? If not, it is a curiousity but not especially helpful I fear... I wish I had the definative answer for you, but the question leads to madness

J

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#233327 - 02/23/06 12:04 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: shoshinkan]
Ronin1966 Offline
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Hello Shoshinkan:

Seisan is an onion, with many layers. Keep peeling and we find new things at time. Learn new receipes and the old layers have new uses?

Who has best the "seisan cookbook"...?

J (time for lunch)

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#233328 - 02/23/06 12:10 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Ronin1966]
shoshinkan Offline
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well, erm thanks for that! LOL, indeed all kata is an onion, thats a given.
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www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#233329 - 02/23/06 12:29 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: shoshinkan]
Joss Offline
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Registered: 01/18/06
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Seisan dachi is a forward stance, 60/40 weight on front foot. Feet are about shoulder width and deep enough to leave a fist length gap between you forward heel and rear leg knee if you lower you rear leg knee to the ground. Both feet are pointed to the front.

This is so in both Ryukyu Hon Kenpo/Kobujitsu and Chito Ryu. I don't know about other ryu.

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#233330 - 02/23/06 12:39 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Ronin1966]
WuXing Offline
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If Seisan is an original Shaolin form, then the number thirteen would be Buddhist symbolism. Buddhism has lots of numbers of things. 13 could be the eight-fold path and the five precepts. I don't know if there's anything that is 13 by itself.

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#233331 - 02/23/06 12:53 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Joss]
shoshinkan Offline
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Thanks for that, interesting!
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#233332 - 02/23/06 12:59 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: WuXing]
shoshinkan Offline
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Im happy to accept that Seisan is based on a very old Shaolin form, however it is uniquley Okinawan as we train it(Karate). It seems that the link with Tiger style is strong, which would lead to seisan being an entry level form, if we follow the Shaolin order of progression.

Yes of course numbers have alot of symbolism and this to could be a link. There is a theory that the Goju orthodox 'old' kata list follows the Buddhist numbers, I dont have the detials to hand but could dig them out - interestgly that theory puts Gojushiho in the Goju set, at 54.
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#233333 - 02/23/06 02:38 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: shoshinkan]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Posts: 6772
this is a new entry, it outlines Seisan kata and it's versions pretty well:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seisan

keep in mind, wikipedia accepts correction submissions. if you see something wrong or would like to add, just edit and submit. make sure your info is good and has a source (if applicable).

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#233334 - 02/23/06 03:01 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: shoshinkan]
Victor Smith Offline
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Posts: 3220
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Jim,

Seisan's position in various systems depends on the history behind the system.

Isshinryu's Seisan, a derivative of Kyan's, became the intial kata because Kyan was following an older Shorin tradition where people began with Seisan.

Itosu derivative systems (like Shotokan) placed Seisan as an advanced kata because of their development of Pinan/Heian and Naihanchi/Tekki kata for beginners, then they used their own kata curricula.

When Goju became somewhat standardized in the 50's Seisan became and advanced kata in their tradition.

Uechi originally only taught 3 kata (till the later 50's or so) and Seisan was the 2nd kata, after Uechi Sanchin).

Of course the placement of beginning Seisan kata practice is relative, the real goal is of course long term advanced execution, in any of the systems, and that's where Seisan gets very interesting.

From what I've found the Chinese Seisan link will always be an open question. Yes many Chinese systems did use numbers for form names, but I have yet to see a Chinese form that resembles Seisan's in any of its incarnations. Till such a form is demonstrated, personally, I'll remain open to just the possibility.

That doesnt' mean possiblitites don't exist. For example I can show Eagle Claw applications of Seisan, but it' would be a long strong of the imagination that Seisan was an Eagle Claw derivative.
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#233335 - 02/24/06 01:25 AM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: WuXing]
CVV Offline
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Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
Quote:

If Seisan is an original Shaolin form, then the number thirteen would be Buddhist symbolism. Buddhism has lots of numbers of things. 13 could be the eight-fold path and the five precepts. I don't know if there's anything that is 13 by itself.




Thats interesting eight-fold path and five precepts. Could you elaborate more?
I've heared many sources claim seisan represents 8 offensive and 5 defensive moves, totalling 13 techniques or moves.
13 also represents a lucky number in China.
To my knowledge it is not linked to buddism or buddist principles like sepai, sanseru, useishi or pechurin.
Mccarthy places the roots in monk fist boxing, lion boxing, tiger boxing. (see bubishi)
Motobu Choki places seisan origin in China in his book 'watashi no karate-jutsu'.

Seisan-dachi is referred to the stance used when delivering the uppercut in the goju version by some schools. It's a shiko dachi with a straight front foot and slightly out of line stance (to keep balance) with upper body in direction to front foot. JKF Goju-kai used to do that but changed to Jundokan version (shiko dachi).
IOGKF uses seisan-dachi. Not sure about Meibukan and Shorei-kan / Shodokan but I believe they use seisan-dachi too.

It's supposed to represent a fumikomi geri (down foot stomp kick) while first blocking a kick with the shin.

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#233336 - 02/24/06 05:53 AM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: CVV]
shoshinkan Offline
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Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Just some info -

im not going to post eight-fold path and five precepts as that wouldnt seem apropiate, however a certain British writer, Nathan Johnson Sensei did once write something like -

Buddhist Numerical links to kata

Sanchin (3 conflicts)
Rokushu (6 Hands)
Seipai (18 Hands)
Sanseryu (36 hands)
Gojushiho (54 steps)
Superinpai (108 hands)

Now of course this doesnt invalidate kata that represent other numbers or names, but its an interesting theory and one that perhaps links in to the development of the Shaolin martial traditions?
_________________________
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www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#233337 - 02/24/06 07:56 AM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: shoshinkan]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
I believe the significance of the numbers can be found in Chinese philosophies and religions. also, have a look at the history of mathematics in China...there is some correlation to 'the magic of numbers'. every culture has superstitions (historic and current) based on numbers/numerology.

Finding the significance of why Seisan is '13' might be nothing more than an exercise similar to the study of why '13' is considered unlucky in the west. A few interesting theories with the Knights templar, etc but nothing concrete.
I think the real answer lies in how/why people believe such superstition and why/how it's propegated into lore. and how widespead lore has it's own 'power'. lore has no power when only few believe it.

but as far as the kata Seisan itself, I don't believe it's name will gain insight into better technique or uncover hidden principles...but you guys already knew that...

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#233338 - 02/24/06 08:09 AM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Ed_Morris]
harlan Offline
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Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
I do think that the naming of kata is important, as it reveals the mindset of the practioners. Or, really, what is considered to be a proper mindset if one wants to get all the benefits from the kata. Naming is like paying homage...in this case to Buddhist ideals.

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#233339 - 02/24/06 12:00 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Victor Smith]
Neko456 Offline
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Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I believe there is more to the reason why Seisan is placed differently in the Shuri syllabas compared to the Goju version it has to do with the fact that the Goju version is more complicated it comprises elements Tiger, Dragon and Crane.

As this quote from Ed's Seisan's memo states 'The Goju-Ryu (Naha-te) version of the kata, Higaonna-no-Seisan, is a more complicated and impressive version that contains close range fighting techniques such as short-range punches, low kicks and directional changes to unbalance the opponent. Typical of Goju-Ryu it contains slow movements performed under tension, as well as strong fast techniques. Although rooted in the same form, significant differences can be seen in the Goju version compared to the two versions mentioned above.

Though it states they have the same roots??
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#233340 - 02/24/06 01:56 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Neko456]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
well, first, wikipedia is not the lay of the law...it's just the best info of the people who bother to maintain it. sometimes complicated details are left out and general statements are put in it's place until better, more solid and sourceable/credible info comes along.

second, 150+ years of separate lineage will do that to a kata. the reason why this one is interesting is because it has so many separate lines of development from early on. More than likely, Higashionna is the one responsible for making goju's version distinctive as was mentioned. Other style versions I've seen do appear to be more fundamental (in appearence), but still recognizable as the same kata.

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#233341 - 02/24/06 05:12 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Ed_Morris]
CVV Offline
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Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
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I agree that the different seisan versions resemble in enbusen and techniques. But also very different sometimes.

The goju version and the toon version differ because they have different source. Kyoda Juhatsu learned a version from Higashiaonna Kanyo, a nephew of Kanryu, who also studied in Fuchow China. It is said that Higashiaonna Kanryu only thaught sanchin sanseru seisan and pechurin. So it seems that pre 1900, seisan kata was a very important kata in the curriculum of the masters of the past.

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#233342 - 02/24/06 08:26 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: CVV]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Posts: 6772
agreed. also CVV, sidenote... re: uppercut in seisan-dachi. I know Meibukan (A. Mirakian) uses seisan-dachi. and also, Kodokan (K. Wall).

One interesting thing about Seisan that I'm not sure has been mentioned... The principles of application in Sanchin can ALL be found in Seisan. You bet Seisan is an important kata in Goju. usually taught around ikkyu. The theory I believe in (and the way I was taught), is that Sanchin is a training kata. while practicing it, the application is within, not to an external opponent. There ARE applications of Sanchin, and Seisan is where the overlaping principals exist. so even though you are practicing bunkai to seisan, you are simultaneously practicing bunkai to Sanchin, so nothing is lost or different really from people who practice bunkai to Sanchin. This is a small (but I think significant) difference and I'm in the minority, but it's the way I prefer to think of the Sanchin/Seisan relationship. plus it makes Sanchin practice special, which it should be, trancending mere external application. It becomes a personal kata....it's the unseen foundation...which starts from the inside and is projected out.

roughly, overlapping sequences/applications in Sanchin-Seisan: (without turn)

they even appear in the same order within both kata:
*Opening 3-set sequences. (open or closed hand options)
*3 'knife hand' sequences.
*ending tora guchi. (sanchin or nekoashi dachi options)

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#233343 - 02/24/06 09:05 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Neko456]
Victor Smith Offline
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Neko,

Seisan is a bit of a passion of mine, I doubt there is any version I don't have several variations on tap in the house. Undoubtedly everyone loves the version they practice.

Realistically there is little difference in the complexity of the different versions in use, if you look at them analytically. They're just different.

Goju's is an extremely nice version, but Toon Ryu's is yet a different dimension of time and space. Uechi's is perhaps the one that gives me the greatest pause, but the potential within all the Matsumura No Seisan variations is just as great. They're just different.

The description of Goju's you quoted applies to them all. Such as low kicks, the Isshinryu version contains kicking at the 1" level (to dislocate ankles) to the calf or inner thigh, and all points north. All depending on which kick is being used (even the act of stepping is a kicking exercise).

My new sho-dans spend about 6 months working on part of Isshinryu's Seisan opening application potential, and at that we're not exhausting other potentials that will come in the following years.

Perhaps later this year Ed and others in the area can get together and share Seisan answers and take a look at 20 or so different Seisan's to try and understand how much is in common.

Seisan was documented as performed in festival in the mid 1800's on Okinawa. I haven't seen any documentation what that version was, but that was about the time Matsumora was getting started. Hiagonna's variations arrived on Okinawa in what the late 1890's? Uechi's didn't formally move int till the late 1940's (for decades earlier he was teaching in Japan).

As far as the point where Seisan is taught, from the Kyan lineage it was the beginning. Years ago I saw various Goju groups that didn't teach Seisan till 4th or 5th dan. It sounds like the curricula has been speeded up of late.

On the other hand Miyagi's direct students either learned Seisan right after Sanchin, or not at all. The history seems to show Miyagi chose normally 1 kata plus Sanchin for his students (rarely 2 or 3 others). So most of his students prior to his death would not have studied Seisan, and the concept of teaching all Miyagi's kata is really more a part of his last years thoughts, as well as the practices his students may have changed on his death. [Depending on who's history you read you find different answers, and I can't evaluate them as I wasn't there.]

There really is so much variablity in what different groups in the same camps actually did, it's difficult to discuss anyting but individual cases.

Pleasantly,
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#233344 - 02/24/06 11:25 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Victor Smith]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
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would love to get together for a Seisan study group
("Seisaminar" )

I've taken a particular interest in this kata over the years, but I've never compaired versions as a study-since just getting to know one is a part-time challange...so I could only share the one I study (Mirakian-Meibukan with later M. Higaonna influence). I'm currently studying w/app the very similar but slight variation of the K. Wall-Kodokan version.

To perhaps continue the spark in the thread, I'll share some bits and pieces I've collected, some of it is sourced...some is not so I appologize in advance. nothings in stone, just take it fo what it's worth or perhaps as a launching into further research if you see something interesting. I don't know the accuracy nor even remember when I joted/copied these down...so I stress taking it with a grain of shio.

Seisan...random notes
-------------------
There are two major versions, with many variants:
the Shuri version and
the Naha version.

Higashionna no Seisan
Uechi no Seisan
Matsumura Orthodox variant
Tomari no Seisan
Oshiro no Seisan
Arakaki no Seisan
Inami (or Iha) no Seisan
Kyabu no Seisan
Motobu no Seisan

Itosu-Hangetsu
----------
The main lineages that include Seisan include those passed down from:
Matsumura Sokon
Kyan Chotoku
Aragaki Seisho
Higaonna Kanryo
Uechi Kanbun
Nakaima Norisato
----------------
Some say that this is the oldest kata that is still practiced in Okinawa, but what basis they use to make this statement is unknown. Seisan means "13" / hangetsu means "crescent moon". Some say that was the name of a famous martial artist who came to Okinawa around 1700.-not likely. Some say that the kata is practiced in Fukien, China among the Fukien Shaolin Monk (Luohan) Fist, Dragon and Lion Boxing Kung Fu practitioners. In Okinawa, there are two different major versions. The Naha-te version is pretty much like the Chinese, according to some sources. The Shuri-te version (which was also taught by Fusei Kise) is quite different, and evolved differently, or so they say. Some say that the Naha-te version was handed down to the Okinawans by the Chinese master Liu Liu-ko, the creator of the "Shouting Crane" style of Fukien, China. Others claim that it was brought to Okinawa by Higashionna Kanryo of Naha-te, a student of Liu Liu-ko. And others even say that it was passed down in Kunida (Kume-Mura) long before Higashionna and Liu Liu-ko came along. As for the Shuri-te version, some say that Takahara Peichin passed it down. Some claim that Matsumura also practiced it, but that claim is questionable, or at least, it is believed by some that he did not include it in his personal system.

Fusei Kise probably got it from one of his teachers who studied under Kyan Chotoku. Some claim that Kyan got it from Bushi Matsumura, but that claim is also questionable.

Some claim that early on, Hohan Soken taught a version of this kata. (unsubstantiated but possible). We just know that it was not taught by him later in life(?unsubstantiated). Another kata we are sure about that he apparently had and decided not to teach is Sanchin. He said that Sanchin teaches the same principles as Naihanchi, so, he said, why be redundant? This may have been the same reason he did away with his verison of Seisan, if he had one, since Gojushiho teaches the same things as it does.

---
The main lineages that include Seisan include those passed down from Kosaku Matsumora /Kodatsu Iha /Chojo Oshiro, Chotoku Kyan, Seisho Aragaki, Kanryo Higaonna, Kanbun Uechi, and Norisato Nakaima, among others. Shimabuku learned this kata from Kyan. Both the Kyan and the Shimabuku versions of this kata strongly resemble the "Matsumura no Seisan" used in some sects of Shito-ryu (see Sakagami, 1978).

Noted senior Okinawan karate authority Hiroshi Kinjo (b. 1919) states that there is no evidence of a Seisan kata being passed down in the "Shuri" lineages of Sokon Matsumura and Anko Itosu, and that the familiar "Shuri" lineage Seisan versions such as the Hangetsu of Shotokan and the Seisan of Kyan lineage systems, should be referred to as Tomari Seisan. His reasoning is that the so-called Oshiro Seisan as presented in the 1930 "Kenpo Gaisetsu" by Nisaburo Miki and Mizuho Takada was actually passed down from Kosaku Matsumora to Kodatsu Iha to Kinjo's own teacher Chojo Oshiro of Yamaneryu Bojutsu fame.
---------

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#233345 - 02/25/06 11:58 AM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Ed_Morris]
Victor Smith Offline
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Registered: 06/01/00
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Loc: Derry, NH
Hi Ed,

Good research, which of course only goes as far as the researcher takes it.

My own analysis is there appears to be a 'source seisan'. Though the different lines diverge, there is enough commonality between almost all of the seisan variations to suggest there was a beginning and then variation in time.

This is similar to the many variations of Patsai on Okinwawa, just at some point a greater fork took place on the road.

There is no way to determine truth. For example some of the Tomari Seisan versions I've seen bear a greater resemblence to the Goju Seisan than the Shorin variations.

On the other hand, in my mind there is a strong case that the Toon Ryu version may be purer old style than the Goju, far smaller numbers have studied Toon Ryu, meaning less chance for variation (IMVHO), and if the Tomari was source there is too much variation from the Toon Ryu, again IMVHO.

Frankly I consider it impossible to prove the source, but I do believe a concerted study of as wide a range as possible leads to a logical conclusion as to what Seisan's original might have contained.

But it takes setting aside style 'prejudice' (not a bad idea for good trianing, just a hinderance for such an inquiry).

Thought leads to growth.
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#233346 - 02/25/06 05:48 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Victor Smith]
shoshinkan Offline
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sorry if i repeat, but as were all being so open here are the yet to be sorted notes from my 'research' -

Seisan, (lit 13)

Old Okinawan/Chinese Seishan

1588 famous Seisan chines emaster arrives on Okinawa, first reference to his method and thus the katas origins


Gung Ji Fook Fu (Hung gar Base Form)emphasizes stance conditioning, chi development, solid bridge work, and has a depth of applications waiting for the student to uncover. The name translates to "cross tiger fist", "subduing the tiger", or "taming the tiger".

It is believed Seisan derives from Yong Chun White Crane Boxing from Fujian Province in Southern China, where the form is known as 'Four Gate Hands'.

The version of Seisan taught in the Shorin-Ryu syllabus can be traced back to Soken 'Bushi' Matsumura (1809-1901) a highly influential teacher to Shorin styles, hence the name Matsumura-no-Seisan. This version was revised by Shian Toma (whose lineage can be traced back to Chotoku Kyan(1870-1945), a student of Soken Matsumura.

Named After Maker. Emphasizes straightforward stance, fist blocking, front kick, and rapid technique (Shorin Ryu). Emphasizes strong low stance with heels shoulder width apart and feet pointed out at a 45-degree angle. Also reinforced blocks, punches, Breath control, and powerful Technique. Teaches how to get inside opponents attack while developing a strong foundation.

This Kata is of Chinese origin. It is one of the original Katas from the ancient Pangai-Noon style, and its name derived from Master Seshan. Should be done with Strong Performance, and has Half moon steps and Crescent stance, Induces and trains for close range fighting with short punches and low kicks and multiple changes in direction. The early version of the form emphasized close range self-defense techniques with the sliding foot movements being used.

Korean form, origionally a Praying Mantis Form. Created in the Song Dynasty and influenced by Kuk Kwon, assumed created by Jang Sam Bong.

This kata was developed by a famous Chinese martial artist Master Seishan (or Seisan). He was a great master from the Pangai Noon Style of Kung Fu or southern Chinese boxing. He was sent from China to Okinawa in 1588 by the king to teach Chinese boxing. He remained on Okinawa until 1600, just prior to the Japanese invasion. Seisan kata is believed by some to be the oldest known kata still being practiced in Okinawa.

Many consider that Sokon "Bushi" Matsumura learned the kata from Master Sakagawa or from one of the Chinese masters when he was in China. Master Sakagawa would have learned Seisan from Peichan Takahara, and Chotoku Kyan learned the kata from Matsumura.

Sei meaning ten and San meaning three.

Kanbum Uechi, an Okinawan who studied in the Fukien province of China from 1897 to 1910 with Chou-Tzu-ho developed the Uechi-Ryu system of karate about 1949. This style incorporates movements of the tiger, crane, and dragon. Sanchin is the first and foremost kata of Uechi-Ryu, but another kata basic to this system is Seisan.

In the Goju-Ryu style, Seisan kata demonstrates 13 techniques: three initial fast chest punches in Sanchin-dachi stance, chest block, two kicks to the knee, and assorted quick punching from the horse stance. It ends with a front kick followed by a punch to the chest and drop into the neko-ashi-dachi with mawashi-uke technique. It is considered an advanced kata in this style.

The basic Seisan stance is used over fourteen times throughout the kata. Additionally, and elbow break designed to free the student from a wrist grab is employed in the kata.

Seisan (Seishan) kata is named after a famous Chinese martial artist who lived on the island of Okinawa around 1700. It is said that he was one of the greatest karate men of that era. Seisan is associated with an astronomer and map maker called Takahara Perchin who was the first teacher of "Tode" Sakugawa. The kata is also known to have been performed by some of the greatest karate men in the history of the art including Bushi Matsumura, Yasutsune Itosu, and Chotoku Kyan. Seisan is used in many Okinawan systems shuch as Isshinryu, ShorinRyu, and Shurite. However, as with many other forms, the kata differs slightly between styles.

The unique thing about this kata is that there are two quite different versions. The Naha-Te version of Seisan favors the Chinese style and the Shuri-Te version had its own evolution. The Shuri-Te version can be traced back to Bushi Matsumura and includes techniques repeated in combinations of three, open-handed blocks and a defense against groin kicks.

Hangetsu, means half-moon and is derived from the Sanshin stance and hand movements in the form. The stances and hand movements include semi-circular paths.


Welcome any advice on what you guys think as it cant all be true!
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Jim Neeter

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#233347 - 02/25/06 10:28 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: shoshinkan]
Victor Smith Offline
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Truth and the history of Okinawan Karate, what a quaint idea.

I would suggest any of us can read every work published in our language (such as English), and translate every word published in one or two others and you'll still have no idea of what the truth is.

I think the first truth is pay attention to the reality of the kata, what is actually there. The past is past and all the book larn'ng in the world can't give truth.

Second the movements comprising all Seisan variations are of an advanced kata. Some groups will only teach it to senior students, others will teach it to beginners, but you really can't touch on what the kata truly offers till advanced abilities are reached. The movements alone are not enough for any of them.

As far as which variation of Seisan is most advanced, which one yields technique a practitioner actually can use to drop anyone. Does it get more advanced than that. Any of the variations can suggest hundreds of techniques. Is anything more important than the correct execution of any of those techniques?

As for mining the past (and believe me I'm not immune to this), why not consider what the current Okinawan's are really doing. Do you really think they care, beyond polite history, that any piece of their arts originated in China? Do they want their students going to China for the 'source' and leaving Okinawa behind? I feel certain as a group the acknowledge a past, but also will strongly suggest that has past and their art's current manifestitation is the right answer. If not they'd be going to China (and I'm sure some have), but as I've heard they really are spending the time on the art they have, instead of what somebody wishes they could find.

Okinwan karate by design, closed off the past except for oral history. Everyone's assumptions otherwise is simply a house of cards. The better 'historians' tell a good story, and the better story they tell the more one wants to believe it. But belief doesn't make it true (nor does beliving make it false).

Even more so what to the current Okinwan's really care about. Course I don't know because I don't go there, but show me the books about Karate Okinawa has published in the past 10 years, and compare those books against what the world has published in that same time. Off hand I can think of just one.

And how many books have been published from Okinwawa anyway, for the past 100 years? Is it fair to consider hose published in Japan at all, or are those before WWII really Okinawan reflecions, and those after WWII something newer and different?

We should research, we should look, but also we should consider is there any point beyond interest?

For the quest of say Seisan, while I believe we can demonstrate a Seisan core that transcends all the versions (and would irritate those who maintain otherwise, always the best reason to do the research), and an application potential for that underlying Seisan that applies to all the Seisan variations. But still all we would have is a logical construct, perhaps a useful one, a logical one, an interesting one, but still just a construct.

The value of course is if you can bind that study into actual training.

The more I think about this now the more I can see the potential. I've been trying to see the shape of this study for several decades, perhaps now it shows itself.

Hmmmm, might burst a few bubbles at that.

Perhaps we will have a Seisan-ness gathering this spring.
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#233348 - 02/25/06 11:05 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Victor Smith]
Ed_Morris Offline
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I agree with your points about history except for the big picture view... what I mean is, sure, collecting info and data mining points of view and interviews, etc is interesting and doesn't really add anything to the practice...but what about serious researchers funding translation of texts that haven't been translated or thoughroughly analysed yet? surely there is merit in that practice. New realities of the past are deducted from such rigerous unbiased investegation (hopefully, unbiased). of course what we do here on an internet forum is simply regurgitate and connect dots... which hardly can be considered 'research'.

so I think you are right to say the reality we have is the form we have been shown and practice to work with. and by using many points of THAT data (meaning comparing everyone's seisan), we might be able to determine a convergence. perhaps.

however, let me suggest something which may further burst bubbles....just today looking at versions of Seisan available on the web in video, I'm not convinced they are even of the same origin, let alone 'author'. matsumora-seisan and higashionna-seisan (If I didn't know they had the same name), I'd consider two separate kata with two separate origins. how can we even begin to synthesize 2 kata which don't even have similar embusen or technique? I'd even argue the principals are not common due to the vast diference in execution, sequence and apparent intent.

Is it possible for a kata to be formed in one place and another kata be developed elsewhere without colaborration and have the coincidence of being named the same name? With a name like "13",(prime numbers had very significate meaning in China- 2,3,5,7,11,13..) I'd say, absolutely yes. not only possible, but likely. Perhaps when the masters realized they have common-named kata, they were unwilling to rename it and from early on hypened on the name of the master which taught it? higashionna-seisan vs matsumora-seisan ...not meaning two variations...but two separate kata.

hmmmm.... but I still like the idea of getting together for comparitive Seisan study.

as an interesting reference, I'll tack this on. the math is pretty involved, but if you skip and read the meaning/application of this 3rd Century Chinese derived theorem (by Sun Tzu, the mathmetician not the strategist), it is shown to have potential martial application.
very interesting.
The Chinese have an often overlooked brilliant history of math...the reason for such dismissal is since Europe surpassed them later in history. and the winners write history.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_remainder_theorem

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#233349 - 02/26/06 03:04 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Ed_Morris]
Victor Smith Offline
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Ed,

I have a different starting point about kata divergence in that Isshinryu Wansu is a case in point how things may have occured.

What logic impells me is there may well have been a Seisan Prime (a Seisan Source) that underwent different paths of development at some junction. There is enough commonality between all of the Sesian kata to suggest what the core may have been, but from the point of divergence different principles and/or additions began to take place.

This appears to be consistent with the Okinawan kata history track after all. For example the Kyan Wansu kata has a different embusen from the Isshinryu Wansu kata (a derivative), but they have a common core too.

It all depends on how one is willing to look at the underlying kata potential.

I'll even take it a step further, I can offer an underlying application potential from my theoretical underlying kata that can apply to all of the versions in existence. Don't matter how they punch or what tension they play with in practice.

Of course none of this implies that such speculation is the original, just a logical analysis that works.

From my perspective, seeing the vast diversity of form I don't buy the underlying core of Seisan would develop spontaneously in different places. What I see is the divergences that arose as the original template met different individuals with different criteria.

But consistent with Okinawan development, names were terribly important, because only the oral history was what was passed along. So Patsai remained Patsai even with the warp of time (the transmission to Japan and the japanification of the names a different topic). And with that logic Seisan remained Seisan even with vastly different warp of intent.

But we're all outsiders playing a game after all, in that we're not Okinawan's. If the Okinawans don't make a case of it, nor care about the past, only what they're doing, except for any positive value to wring from the study, is it worth more?

I still think a Seisan group share might be of value.
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#233350 - 02/26/06 03:14 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Ed_Morris]
Victor Smith Offline
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Hi again Ed,

I think I went too fast..."what about serious researchers funding translation of texts that haven't been translated or thoughroughly analysed yet? surely there is merit in that practice."

While I grant you there is merit in those translation efforts, exactly what texts are you referring to? There are efforts being made on the texts published in Japan in the 30's and 40's or so. But they're not Okinawan texts either.

So at best they're texts written for a non-Okinawan audience, and how much do they share? Much of what was written is in the Itosu/developing Shotokan lineage or derivative.

Mabuni wrote in the Goju tradition a great deal (I translated part of his first two works from French translations on Sanchin/Seiunchin and Sepai, though Mario McKenna has done a fuller job with the original Japanese versions).

In 1933 Mutsu describes Seisan (but it is in core the Seisan Funakoshi described in 1922).

And for the Chinese origins. If there was anything that remotely resembled what Okinawan karate developed I would be very glad to accept it as a plausible link, but what I've seen to date, is just hope fullfillment, not linked practices. It's very likely the Chinese sources of Okinawan tradition, also undergoing change, moved in directions that there is no link really remaining. I once read a British interview with a senior Chinese WuShu coach talking about it. His rough opinion was any martial sources for Okinawa's development were not main stream Chinese arts. He felt they were likely worthy individuals, but in the area which such contact occured, it was likely they were not players on the larger Chinse martial scene. It seems to me likely not to be answered anytime soon.

More importantly so because if the Chinese could show the driect link, after what they suffered from the Japanese in the unpleasantness of the last century (how's that for politically correct about the wretchedness which Japan blanketed on China), they would not hesitate to show the links to 'trump' Japan (and in their eyes, Okinawa is but Japan, the distinction too minor to quibble about).

But clear proof isn't there, and I feel very unlikely to spring forth because it may no longer exist. That doens't mean its not real, just perhaps no longer in existence.

All that remains is wonder.
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#233351 - 02/26/06 05:06 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Victor Smith]
shoshinkan Offline
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'The value of course is if you can bind that study into actual training'

Totally agree wiht this and have to admit that I have to keep ensuring that this is the case, personally i found some great lessons that have impacted my karate from my poor attempt at research, mainly net based. Certainly alot of help in understanding my karates roots and history, which for me is part of the deal.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#233352 - 02/26/06 09:03 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Victor Smith]
Ed_Morris Offline
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All valid points Victor... especially the point of the Chinese motivations for proving such links. If they could, surely someone would have by now.

about translators...
In addition to the mainstream/professional translators and researchers ...Funakoshi, Mabuni, ... Goodin, McCarthy, McKenna, Higaonna, et al. there have been some amature translations (which one could argue have less vested reason to 'adjust' interpretations to a particular favor...but I'm just suppossing, not accusing).

like some of the people who translate and make available but don't publish or sell:
http://museum.hikari.us/books/
or
http://uk.geocities.com/sanzinsoo/

not to mention the people who conduct individual interviews and translate the content. (however, less 'independantly' if sponsered by a magazine editor)
http://www.doshinmartialarts.com/interview.html

but now I'm off-topic. The answer is: yes, I'd like to meet up in the spring for a seisan study group

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#233353 - 02/28/06 09:52 AM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: shoshinkan]
Ronin1966 Offline
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Hello Shoshinkan:

Hummmmmmmmngh.... generic research, or even scholarly research (in English) specific to our arts and its kata are quite challenging to find!!! The internet has much information, but "proof" is another question entirely!!!
I can find multiple sites which make completely ridicilous assertions in one of my "parent arts" re: Seisan kata. Yet as to "proof", or even a decent presentation of support for the idea/s presented... are lacking. The standard sentiment being ~...you believe us because we say it is so... and was told us by XYZ (who said the same thing)...~ becomes an endless amusing cycle...

Question if I may??? When you find some assorted answers whether concerning the meaning, or merely the presentation (eg Seisan Kata)... how will you connect THEM with the presentation which you possess??? In some cases, many perhaps... there is a tangible difference between what you are doing, what you understand... and what someone else are presenting...

How do you resolve the variations, or differences??? Is not the core questions always.... ~...how did we get THIS... and why is it that way, not the older way...~ I love research, particularly if someone else does it and we get to borrow their results... but how do you interact the variations & explainations you may uncover with what you already more intimately understand....?

Merely musing, hopefully coherently,
J

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#233354 - 02/28/06 10:53 AM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Ronin1966]
Ed_Morris Offline
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I'm guessing, because I've never done any comparison study of any kata other than slight variations within my own....but the commonality between versions (I would think) has to lay within the principals of each version.

If kata X has many principals dealing with escaping techniques....and kata Y has mostly principals dealing with various defenses against a flank attack coming at you, it would be a much harder sell to see the common denominator between them.

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#233355 - 02/28/06 11:45 AM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Victor Smith]
cxt Offline
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Folks

Discussions like this are one of the main reasons I really like this site/forum.

Just wanted to say "thanks" to all involved.

Excellent reading, and sparks a number or questions.
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I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#233356 - 02/28/06 12:08 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Ronin1966]
shoshinkan Offline
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Hi there,


Well first its important to remember that this kind of research supports not replaces my dojo training, very key that is.

I work to the system of gathering everything, cross referencing statements/ideas, looking at the source of those ideas ie respectable or not, and then adding a big slice of what I feel is 'sensible' based on my own expierience.

once at that stage i run things by a small group of my Seniors who then give me their opinion, and if all that sticks i try and apply the relevant info into my training, very slow process and all guided by my Sensei.

Most of it is involved around the historical development of karate and whilst interesting may not have a direct impact on my actual training, however some little bits most definatly do have an impact - an example being the work im doing in the hand formations area - impacts my kata in a small way and in my view gives a far more accurate version of 'older' kata, if you catch my drift.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#233357 - 03/02/06 10:33 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Ronin1966]
Neko456 Offline
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I believe that side by side comparison are informative they show and add to views on other possibilities for the techniques in each form. Side by side form comparison you find movement and techniques that not taught or taught differently in basically the same system Okinawan/Japanese or even Korean. And most certainly Chinese systems. It is a fun and informative process.

Naha-Te Seisan and Shuri-Te Seisan will defintely have differ feel, flow and complexity, meant for a different level of insight. Both are very poweful and useful forms.
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#233358 - 03/04/06 11:13 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: shoshinkan]
Ronin1966 Offline
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Hello Shoshinkan:

<<an example being the work im doing in the hand formations area

Tell us more of this "hand formation" business, (particularly if it pertains to Seisan kata...)? Are you talking about variations of hand positions within a singular kata? (ie look the same but are not) Are you talking about variations of finger positions in specific fists? More please....

J

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#233359 - 03/04/06 11:29 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Neko456]
Ronin1966 Offline
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Hello Neko456:

<<Naha-Te Seisan and Shuri-Te Seisan will defintely have differ feel, flow and complexity, meant for a different level of insight.

How so? Something beyond the generic large-power vs. the small person power and emphasis? The generic Goju vs. the Shorin expreessions? What do the words reference in regard to levels of insight?

Side by side I agree can be interesting but I suppose myself I worry potentially there is also no end of "side by side" I might perform and not gain clarity, insight? End up doing the investigation of anything I can find specific to Seisan kata and go... but hey what about THAT expression...
and theirs... oh don't forget their variation of that sequence...

How do you prevent that phenomina <sp.?>?
J

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#233360 - 03/04/06 11:36 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Ed_Morris]
Ronin1966 Offline
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Hello Ed:

<<I've never done any comparison study of any kata other than slight variations within my own....

Variations from within your own ryu?

How do you determine the principles if we're not spoon fed them? Behind, escapes... are those the assorted "templates" which the kata expresses throughout, correct? The whole kata (in this particular case) asks the question all right what does Seisan kata say, layer, hint, whisper about attacks from behind, from its beginning to the end.... different template being escapes (hand correct?)

Are there more templates IYV?

J

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#233361 - 03/05/06 06:00 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Ronin1966]
shoshinkan Offline
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think of all the basic hand positions that are generally taught, most of them in 'modern' karate are not as they should be for effectivness (mainly due to sports karate focus and lack of using the art), much of my research in this area is of Chinese origin to find out the correct formations of nukite, hiraken, ipponken etc etc................(animal styles is a good clue!). Then of course I can build these back into my kata and also condition the formations, its alot of fun.
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#233362 - 03/05/06 11:44 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Ronin1966]
Ed_Morris Offline
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yes, variations within a Ryu, lineage has a tendancy to fork. (except maybe some back country places that haven't outlawed incest yet. )

Goju Ryu has many branches in it's tree. read up on the history of Goju and you'll understand why. learning Seisan from Miyagi in the 1920's was not the same as learning Seisan from Miyagi in the 1950's. what changed? the student.

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#233363 - 03/10/06 05:18 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Ronin1966]
Neko456 Offline
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How so? Something beyond the generic large-power vs. the small person power and emphasis? The generic Goju vs. the Shorin expreessions? What do the words reference in regard to levels of insight?

In the Goju verison it looks/feels like gung-fu in the Shorin verison it looks and feels like graceful shorin Karate the techniques are intermediate to basic (not the concept because the basic is the advance at one point).

But in the Goju version for example there is a upper cuting throat rips (usually not discussed unles of the system but were family here) not performed in Shorins version there are other upper level techniques that divided the level of complexity in the two Kata with the same name.

Doing each I feel a different purpose and know why they are placed well in each system rank syllabus, in my opinion. Its no biggy its just so.


Edited by Neko456 (03/10/06 05:25 PM)

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#233364 - 03/11/06 01:32 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Neko456]
Ed_Morris Offline
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what specific versions of Seisan are you familiar with?

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#233365 - 03/12/06 12:17 AM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Ed_Morris]
Neko456 Offline
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The Okinawan Goju-ryu versions and one of the Shorin-ryu version, I think its Bushi Matsumura's.

What versions do you practice? Goju-Kia's and what else?


Edited by Neko456 (03/12/06 12:17 AM)
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#233366 - 03/12/06 01:33 AM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Neko456]
Ed_Morris Offline
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I don't know Goju-kai or any other Japanese Goju versions.

as mentioned before, I practice Higaonna-Seisan.
specifically:
Meibukan Goju variant (M. Yagi line)
Kodokan Goju variant (S. Higa line)

(Yagi and Higa might have learned Seisan from Jinan Shinzato or from Miyagi, but Miyagi definitely got Seisan from Higaonna)

The two are practically identical but differ in tempo and slight changes due to interpretive movement. to the observer, one might say one version looks stylized and the other looks sloppy. the principles of the body mechanics are nearly identical.

Quote:

Doing each I feel a different purpose and know why they are placed well in each system rank syllabus, in my opinion. Its no biggy its just so.



you do know there are many more than just 2 versions, yes? did you bother to read the thread from the beginning?
you may want to read again...to just say the goju version vs. the shorin version doesn't really mean anything to anyone who has studied Seisan.


so to get the thread back on track...lets say we have examples of each version to work with...how would someone go about synthesizing a common denominator? would it be by looking at the individual principles in each and keeping all the commons? then you'd have to look into the variations of each of those principles and come up for a likely technique. This would be a bit a like taking the info we had on Higaonna changing Sanchin from open to closed hand, and combining that info with Uechi-ryu's version (open hand-first sequence), along with other versions and changes thru time/master... and arriving at the most likely scenario of seisan's first sequence to be open hand.

The opening sequences are fairly straight forward...open hand in sanchin-dachi, is probably how the original starts. what about after that? (in the version I do, the next sequence would be simulataneous parry/grab behind the neck and knife-hand strike to side of head, then eye rake).
whereas uechi ryu does a double parry and goes right for the eyes? (just going by a drawing, so I'm guessing). but yet hangetsu appears to double parry and double strike the neck with double first finger strike?

how would someone even begin to synthesis that?...well, of course knowing the history of each kata would help - maybe those are the pieces I'm missing in order to see it....

I might be over my head on this...it's almost like you'd need a humongus wall map with timelines and lineages to keep the differences straight....yikes


(I'll ask a math genius friend of mine how he would solve a puzzle like that...maybe the process could be automated somewhat. ...or maybe it's not that mechanical and needs the 'fuzzy logic' of someone who knows all versions and histories.)

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#233367 - 03/12/06 02:44 AM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Ed_Morris]
Neko456 Offline
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Quote:

You do know there are many more than just 2 versions, yes? did you bother to read the thread from the beginning?
you may want to read again...to just say the goju version vs. the shorin version doesn't really mean anything to anyone who has studied Seisan.




I practice one of the Shorin-ryu versions of Seisan the Bushi Matsumuras version, I was told. So Yes I know there are many versions of this kata, and anybody that studied Shorin would know or be close to knowing which version by my statement. Theres some many version its easy to be lost but some Shuri practictioners would have a close idea. Sorry for losing you, its hard to generalize theres so many versions in shorin. I haven't seen all the versions of this kata from the Naha nor in Shuri, the point I was making is that theres a big difference in the two branches.
The example of Shotokan version is close to gojus and its also a upper level form not like the kyu level version. So thers obvious difference within each system.

Automatly if you know the version I spoke of you know one starts in Sanchin two hands the other Zenkutsu or low stance one hand.

I know Goju-kai (I am sorry for assuming) and Goju-ryu (your sequence is similar to ours; in the Shorin version it twin phoinex eye punches & spear hands) have slight variations and probably slight differences within each of these same systems. In Goju some learn it at Shodan others a Sandan or where ever. I'd say the Higashiona-version is the stylized version the throat movement is very graceful.

What do you mean sloppy and stylized? Jerky movement, off timing or flow? I've seen 1 version by a Eurpoean Goju-Kai stylist with all mid-level kicks???

Yes I know there are many versions of Seisan especially in Shorin-ryu. A Seidokan Instructor stated that its one of their basic katas 7th kyu I believe.

I read this thread and it was interesting.


Edited by BrianS (03/12/06 04:18 AM)

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#233368 - 03/12/06 10:10 AM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Neko456]
Ed_Morris Offline
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'sloppy' was probably a poor choice of words. today, kata seems to be taught with precise movements...this has to be at 45 degrees, the hand in line with the shoulder, don't extend hands past the sides, etc ...especially with embusen. well, imagine kata where rules and precise geometric movements and pauses in the kata are replaced with movement to get the job done. as a result, it looks less exaggurated with no gaps/pause between techniques.

someone might call it sloppy since it won't win any medals in a competiton, but the movement is closer, if not identical, to a particular application of what it could actually be used for. It shows a deeper level of understanding the kata than just precise stylized movements.

I think this is the way (and source of confusion) about kata in general. first, a stylized and exact geometric pattern is taught, then later in training, after the application potentials have been covered, the person practices the kata with less geometric movement and closer reflects the application potential.

to make it more confusing, whenever you buy a book or DVD that has 'bunkai' in it...there is a good chance it will be applications that were force-fit using the stylized kata movements. or, they are often the stylized kumite used just for training and not intended to directly translate into combat/self defense....but they help train aspects of it. so it's not useless, but it has to be kept in mind there are deeper layers.

what has happened is, too many instructors have opened up shop before completeing their study...so the stylized kata is the one that propegates - and over time, the more advanced study is lost in the mainstream. This is something I've suspected, but didn't really see it until fairly recently. I'm still only scratching the surface.

There is merit in having a training version and an application version. one is for teaching and learning principles, the other is for using.

Something to consider in the exercise of deriving a generation-prime Seisan.

having said that, it appears (to me) that the UechiRyu version is the least stylized and should hold a great deal of weight in this Seisan exercise. ...then again, I'm only going by photos, video and lots of premature guessing.

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#233369 - 03/13/06 07:14 AM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Ed_Morris]
shoshinkan Offline
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Of course Seisan will vary between, well each karateka let alone systems etc etc.

In my mind we have 3 distinct versions to look at -

1. Shorin ryu version, Matsumura
2. Goju ryu version, Miyagi
3. Uechi ryu version

Thats a fair cross section of main resources regarding seisan, for me anyway! Of course we could expand that list ALOT, but personally i see little value in that as the styalistic changes become more apparent and could dilute the 'core' message, which to me is what is the Okinawan seisan message before styles?????????
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#233370 - 03/13/06 02:40 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: shoshinkan]
Victor Smith Offline
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I think the number of versions of Seisan cover a wider range than just the three versions offered.

From Matsumura
Matsumura No Seisan
Matsumura Orthodox Seisan (Soken)
Kyan No Seisan
Shorinji No Seisan
There is another version too.
Seibukan No Seisan
Shimabuku No Seisan
Itosu No Seisan
Funakoshi No Seisan

From Hiagonna Kanryo
To'on Ryu No Seisan
Goju No Seisan (many sub variations)
Mabuni No Seisan (Shito Ryu)

Tomari Traditions
Tomari No Seisan
Odo No Seisan

Matoyashi No Seisan
Motobu No Seisan
Agagaki No Seisan (McCarthy)

Uechi Tradktions
there are two different Uechi variations on Seisan
Paganoon Ryu No Seisan

It's unfair to lump them together in the quest.

The simplest basic analysis is the underlying embusen, the pattern they all share.

1. Essentially a row of techniques going out.
2. A turn
3. A row of techniques coming back
4. A "+" pattern of techniques.

IMO this much is present in all the versions. Then the issue is the embleshment, the flux, the tidal flow of the form, execution changes, and additions.

If you start looking at the techniques you are getting into the flex of the art, but if you look at the floor, you're closer to the origins (IMVHO).

Every one of these variations is a complete art in themselves. No source version is necessary. But there can be further analysis towards universal underlying application that spans the versions (propriatory analysis of my own). Much simpler than the detail most commonly sought.

Just my thought, but Seisan Prime might be the inner essence of all the above.
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#233371 - 03/13/06 03:55 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Victor Smith]
shoshinkan Offline
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Of course I see where you are coming from Victor, and you make a valid point.

This is where my 'big slice' of reality comes into play for my research and what i can achieve, I keep things simple, learn simple lessons,

I thouroughly respect your methods but they are just different from mine.

when your done feel free to send me the ultimate 'root' kata please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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#233372 - 03/14/06 09:48 AM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: shoshinkan]
Victor Smith Offline
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Hi Jim,

‘The ultimate root kata’ – personally I’m afraid that’s overstating the case.

It is interesting how people want to find the old secret, better than today’s versions of training. The equivalent of boxers wanting to abandon today’s boxing technology not to go back to the Great John L. Sullivan’s bare knuckle days, but the original Roman games version with spiked gloves. O’sorry, they’re not trying to do that.

When I began to get interested in an underlying Seisan-ness it was to understand how Okinawan karate is linked together, not to know the secret past.

There is no past to discover. Okinawan history of karate is non-literate and also very much non-verbal. Instead direct transmission, pressing the flesh instructor to student. What you are shown is what is, period, unless of course you were also fortunate to train with your instructors instructor.

Observations or logical analysis on Seisan-ness will not find a past that is gone. It can suggest there was an underlying template, that of Seisan-ness, which the future was built upon.

Looking at a great number of different Seisan kata, and setting aside style prejudice (the normal result of training in a system) the most common aspect is the embusen, or the pattern of the form. IMO, you can use the following template with all of the Seisan variations I’ve seen to date.

1. Essentially a row of techniques going out.
2. A turn
3. A row of techniques coming back
4. A "+" pattern of techniques.

Logic would dictate that the original Seisan contained at least this common core.

Then the method of striking and kicking, the manner of moving, stances, additional sections of technique, the method of energy development and release, etc. all seem to arise from different concerted efforts to use that core.

But the Okinawan tendencies seems to not set the past aside but build upon it.

Thus perhaps this is as close as we can get to what the original Seisan kata contains.

Yet if one’s intention is to show how the varying forms contain a great deal in common, there is another sort of analysis to be made. A core application of technique found among all the differing variations. Not to randomly pick movements and maintain they are the original, but to look at application potential all of the versions contain, and suggest the value in working together, practicing those applications, beyond the style specific ones.

In my original exercise of Seisan-ness, my choice of technique would be other than the existing versions, as much as possible. To force looking at the specific underlying application potential and not becoming caught up in the ‘correct’ technique discussion.

For myself I think I’ve found what I was looking for, and as a tool I can use, to help show how all of us Seisan practitioners have a great deal more in common than it appears on the surface.

But it’s not the original, just a logical construct created for a specific purpose.

A tool, an explanation, not a replacement for anything.
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#233373 - 03/16/06 01:46 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Victor Smith]
shoshinkan Offline
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Hi Victor,

as always you post is most interesting, and of course i see where you are coming from.

I am very fortunate where I train and am very happy with how we work Seisan, thats a given. Im also very interested in what other reputable martial artists do as unfortunatly the full 'lessons' were not passed to me by my early Sensei, maybee they didnt know or maybee they just disliked me............

however I try and look back to relevant historical references with all of my karate, its a passion and whilst important it doesnt effect my in the now training, any lessons I learn are 'ok'ed'or not by my Seniors and sometimes very slowly integrated into my training.

Your observations of the seisan kata are certainly valid and usefull, and have helped me realise that whilst research is important, its all under my nose anyhow...............if i look and train with the right attitude, under the right people and for long enough the 'secrets' seem to pop out from time to time.

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#233374 - 03/16/06 02:26 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: shoshinkan]
Victor Smith Offline
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Hi Jim,

Yes how we train is the most important thing. My own Isshinryu Seisan is my passion, but I've received training in Seisan through Shimabuku Ezio lineage, Ueich lineage and Shotokan (non JKA) Hangetsu lineage, as well as having seen most of the rest I've posted (but not all).

What we do with what we have is the most important thing, but the past can be mined.

One acquaintence once made a case that Isshinryu Seisan's embusen was actually a refletion of the kanjin for Seisan. I'm not a Japanese scholar and I never fully understood his point, but when I look at my current analysis, 3 sets of techniques and a "+", and look at one kanjin for seisan I've seen

+
-
-
-

There is a similarity, 3 type of techniques and a cross of techniques. But that's just my non-japanese educated mind looking at a kanjin I don't understand.... still..

The interesting thing is there are lessons that cross the groups of systems in how the techniques in those sections cna be applied, equally between almost all of the versions.

If you're ever in the neighborhood perhaps we can have some fun looking together.

Pleasantly,
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#233375 - 03/16/06 04:28 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Victor Smith]
Ed_Morris Offline
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If thats true, I'd love to see the embusen for 'gojushiho'=54. the characters for '50' !

interesting collection of info from this article:
http://www.kengokai.com/category/kata/

from the article:
Quote:

Seisan’s Chinese origins are probably from Tiger Style Qu’an-fa. Tiger style Qu’an fa (Tora kenpo) still has a kata called Seisan, though Sells (2000) tells us that it is much longer and more complex than the forms practiced in Okinawan karate.




can anyone confirm this? about the Tiger fist form I mean.

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#233376 - 03/17/06 08:23 AM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Ed_Morris]
Victor Smith Offline
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Ed,

I've seen some Tiger and personally I don't see a direct link to karate, but I'll spend some time reviewing my notes this weekend. Then again it all depends on what you can see doesn't it. Many systems contain tiger forms, but the ones I'm thinking of were a Southern Tiger style.

One point, many Chinese systems use numbers for forms. So Sanchin (3 battles), Seisan (13), Nijushiho (24) Gojushiho (54) and Superimpe (108) may exist as names in those systems. The numbers had phislosphical/religious/political signifance in China as I remember, but I'm not a scholar in the Chinese arts.

China isn't going out of their way to share much of their traditions, and many of them (including modern wushu) literally begin almost as a newborn. Watch a young tai chi performer who began very young and then consider if anyone who didn't begin at that age can do what they do with the system. Many of the Chinese arts are the same, and you really can only find sinppets (even thousands of forms) which do not replace the developmental method of learning their systems.

I wonder if the reason the links to China aren't found are as much as those people who taught the Okinawans, may have been shunned by their peers and the systems dissapated over time. On Okinawan, most of Isshinryu's founders students left when he began teaching the American Marines.

China has a much longer history of distrust of outsiders (hundreds of years of that). Sure port cities dealing with trade are more likely to find those who will share with outsiders, but were they serious, mainstream arts which did perpetuate themselves, or smaller arts that moved on?

All we seem to have are the oral histories, and at that who knows how accurate they were. It's not impossible that the names and histories were deceptions too, after all Okinawan karate was a 'secret' back in those days. Why not blame it on the Chinese... misdirection to outsiders, or 'proof' of the style's worth..... who can really say.

I don't doubt anything, but I retain a health skepticism unless I've seen it myself and can draw my own judgements.

Which is why I find my Seisan-ness analysis interesting. I can show how it can bind almost all the Okinawan systems together by showing what they have in common, not what theey have that is different or separate.

Which of course scares some too.
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#233377 - 03/22/06 09:21 AM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Victor Smith]
Victor Smith Offline
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Jim,

I think there is another use from my search to understand a logical understructure for Seisan kata, across the varied Okinawan systems. The same logic might be applied to try and validate a Seisan source form.

Seisan history, while mostly an oral tradition does tell us a few things.

First Seisan had been present on Okinawna in the early 1800’s. It was performed in the mind 1800’s at a public demonstration of arts. We have no record what that Seisan looked like. Just the name was the same (assumption on my part, there may have been different Sesian kanji too, just as there are four different sets of kanji for Seiunchin kata reported by Joe Swift, each with a different meaning). Ones assumptions can only go so far, and they never constitute true proof, just a current logical summation.

Second some time in the mid 1800’s Matsumura studied in China and there is a Matsumura no Seisan kata attributed to him.

Third in the late1800’s Hiagonna studied in China and the Toon Ryu, Goju Ryu and Shito Ryu Seisan traditions are attributed to his teachings.

Fourth also it the late 1800’s Uechi studied in China and the Uechi no Sesian tradition is attributed to his teachings too.

Of course Matsumura, Hiagonna and Uechi also may have studied on Okinawa and those studies may have influenced their studies. There is no independent source of truth.

What one can say, however, is the Matsuura/Hiagonna/Uechi traditions all contain a common core of Seisan-ness, as I’ve previously discussed.

With the record Okinawa demonstrates of keeping a kata’s core, even with style changes (such as multiple Kusanku’s, Patsai’s, Rohai’s, etc.) it seems keeping to the different Sesian traditions, no matter how much that core was flexed in each tradition, the core, the underlying structure was not completely altered.

Thus there is a tool you can consider. A source Seisan kata (whether from Okinawa or China) ought contain:
1. A row of techniques moving forward to 12:00 focusing on some type of striking.
2. Using a 180 degree turn to the rear as a technique sequence
3. A row of techniques moving forward to 6:00 using some sort of rising then overturning hand
4. A “+” sequence utilizing turning and multiple striking/techniques to overwhelm an opponent.
Then add the clincher, if the source system calls the form Seisan, case closed, regardless of how much more complex or simple.

Of course it would be even more convincing if there were generations of that locations students and teachers actually practicing those older traditions. Just having a ‘researcher’ returning with the answers is nowhere near as satisfactory as seeing the tradition live.

It would be pleasant if such a source would be located that fits that criteria. The issue would be resolved, from a logical point of view.

But such a forms existence doesn’t mean anybody should study it. It’s just a historical link of interest, to the handful that care. Perhaps it would close some historical puzzles, perhaps not Systems of study are nor more or less worthy. The practitioner makes their studies worthy.

Is it likely to be found?
1. If someone had found it, I guarantee it would be being marketed right now. We know people have searched and are searching. If found it wouldn’t be kept hidden, but sold.
2. If such a link existed, I guarantee China would be pushing the true origins of the Okinawan (and by extension the Japanese) arts. They’d love to hold it over Japan, even if the arts involved really aren’t Japanese. The WWII years have left wounds that may never truly heal. But any source Chinese Arts for Okinawan tradition may be so minor in China (a very likely proposition) that they no longer exist or have changed too much in the last century to be recognizable.
3. It’s even likely the source Chinese tradition may be Okinawan. There have been Chinese villages on Okinawa for centuries. It’s been suggested that they might even be the source for the Bubishi. If that is the true source, its origins may be very old and unrecognizable. And those Chinese families may still have their own private arts that no one outside of their family may know exists. It’s all just speculation, but plausible to some degree.
4. I see no reason the ones most directly affected by this, the current Okinawan systems will ever make a more concerted search. Their future isn’t looking at China but propagating their own systems, and a true search for origins is likely not in their best interests. Outside of a general acknowledgement that such a past exists, they have absolutely no reason to seek it out today. Finding it would only lead some to seek out those arts, not their own.
5. Yes various Okinawan instructors in the past have gone to China. But if they found a direct link, where is the proof?
6. One wonders how much today’s Okinawan’s might be relieved the material Miyagi came back from China with was destroyed by American bombing in WWII.

Logic remains but at tool. It cannot prove truth, but it is one way to contemplate how to recognize what cannot be proven.
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#233378 - 03/22/06 10:39 AM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Victor Smith]
cxt Offline
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Victor


To extend your line of reasoning a bit.

The man whose students demonstrated seisan and suparimpei at the aforementined demo was Aragaki--he was also was Higashionas first teacher.

Whom exactly Aragaki studied under and with is a matter of speculation, but it is belived that he studied in China.

What is of interest to me, and kind of to your posit, is that kata handed down by Aragaki ended up in both the Shorin and Naha arts.

(nijushiho in Shorin--but NOT Naha, for example)

That can push seisan kata back an entire generation, plus it adds a guy that studied in China and is VERY connected to the history of both "streams" of karate and connected to the seisan kata itself.

Given the similarites of the Naha branchs of seisan--Goju, To'on, Ruei-Ryu, Uechi, etc

It clear that "something" was going on in the Fujian region of China, over a peroid of gereations that effected the course of Okinawan karate--and whatever that "something" was, it was pretty similar across several styles.

For an added level of confusion, you might check www.uechi-ryu.com in Van Canna's forum, they are posting some historical "I was there" stories from Toyama--one of Uechi oldest students.
Seems that Uechi may--"MAY" have been pretty familar with Shorin and Naha karate PRIOR to his going to China.

And of course there is no telling what exactly what was going on at the Kojo dojo in Fujain.


Edited by cxt (03/22/06 03:51 PM)
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#233379 - 03/22/06 02:09 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: cxt]
Victor Smith Offline
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Hi CXT,

I agree with you. I hadn't intended this to be a complete historical justification, or even a complete description of my analysis, but appreciate your comments for I think your contentions are likely as well.

As much as I'd like to see more, I suspect this is about as far as we can truly take this without more information.

But I'm always looking.
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#233380 - 03/22/06 03:56 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Victor Smith]
cxt Offline
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Victor

This has been a very thought provokeing discussion on all parts.

I have greatly enjoyed reading everyones thoughts, opinions, and input.

Learned some things I didn't know, got me to think more about what I "thought" I knew.

Again, thanks to all the posters!
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#233381 - 03/22/06 04:50 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: cxt]
Ed_Morris Offline
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great thread. I'm ready for the springtime Seisan study group gathering (it's spring now isn't it? ).

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#233382 - 03/22/06 06:09 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Ed_Morris]
shoshinkan Offline
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good work from all I say, i also agree that we have proberly reached a point - alot of info been shared here and thats good to see on an open forum.

How i would like to join you guys for a seisan study!!!!!!!!

Anything else I get I will post up,
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#233383 - 03/22/06 09:07 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: shoshinkan]
Victor Smith Offline
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Nah, you just want to see what I have left up my sleeve about Seisan.......


Just keep watching my right hand, that's where the action is.
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#233384 - 03/23/06 08:56 AM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Victor Smith]
shoshinkan Offline
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LOL,

caught in the act.........


'group hug'
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#233385 - 03/24/06 10:20 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Victor Smith]
Ed_Morris Offline
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I have a question about a particular sequence of Higaonna-Seisan.

After the initial 3 step sequence. I've always done knife hand strike, then the 3 fast double circular parry/eye rake.

has anyone ever heard that particular sequence referred to as 'sun and moon'?

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#233386 - 03/27/06 10:18 AM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Ed_Morris]
shoshinkan Offline
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Not I, however i have heard/use the term used to reference the kamae start and finish to Passai. Sorry a little off topic......
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#233387 - 03/28/06 11:57 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: shoshinkan]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Thanks sho, I'll look into that.
------------------------------------

another reference to Seisan I came across:

Tang Daiji (To Daiki, 1887-1937)

Born in Fuzhou, China and lived in Naha during 1915-1930. Friend of Gokenki, Miyagi and Mabuni and part of their study group (Kenkyokai) for 10-15 years.

ref source: www.meibukanmagazine.org article #4

my questions:
1.
Conflicting sources as to the style he taught.
Five Ancestor Fist or Whooping/White Crane or Tiger Boxing ?

2. Is it true he taught Seisan? If so...then what version and to whom?

also, perhaps connected, maybe not...has anyone ever seen To'on ryu Seisan? It would seem to be a key piece to the seisan-prime puzzle since it would't have Miyagi's changes/influence to the kata (if any). (see the 3-part series I referenced, articles #2,3,4).

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#233388 - 03/29/06 08:43 AM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Ed_Morris]
Victor Smith Offline
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Ed,

The best discription of Tou'on Ryu, provided by Mario McKenna is found in the 5th issue of Meibukan Magazine at:

http://www.meibukanmagazine.org/No5July2005.htm

I did meet Mario last year and have seen his Seisan, which bears resemblence to Goju's and many differences too.

Perhaps Meibukan, with very few practitioners has remained less changed from Hiagonna's original (of course how to prove it). Logic suggests that. Yet logic is never proof.

Perhaps you can put this on your discussion list for our next meet.
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#233389 - 03/29/06 03:39 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Victor Smith]
CVV Offline
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I am told that Toon ryu seisan comes from Kanyo Higashiaonna, a nephew of Kanryu Higashiaonna who also studied in China.
But why not look at the Seko Higa line (curiuos myselve), he was Miyagi's first student and also studied under Kanryu Higashiaonna.

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#233390 - 03/29/06 03:48 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: CVV]
Victor Smith Offline
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Actually Mabuni also trained under Kanryu Higashiaonna, at his friend, Miyagi's, suggestion. But he also trained with Miyagi and Shito Ryu reflects those traditions.

From my humble perspective all of those versions, Tou'on Ryu, Goju Ryu and Shito Ryu fall within my Seisan template along with the rest.

But I suspect that the Tou'on Ryu version reflects the older, simply because it remained a private practice with fewer involved in its transmission.

Of course that's just an opinion, and all of those versions are equally yet differently applicable in my book.
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#233391 - 03/29/06 03:58 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Victor Smith]
CVV Offline
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Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
I agree on the general seisan pattern they all have.

Within my experience, the shitei seisan (JKF-WKF approved version for competition) is the Jundokan version with standardised stances and kick.(shiko dachi, mae geri). The older version I was thaught has different perspective like seisan dachi with fumikomi geri (footstomp kick) or heelkick into the inner thy or loin (in place of standard mae geri). Yet I do not exactly know where these differences come from. When I ask about them I get explained 'koryu', old way.

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#233392 - 03/29/06 04:09 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: CVV]
Victor Smith Offline
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Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
CVV,

The article by Mario McKenna in Meibukan Magazine showing that Tou'on Ryu leg maneuver is really difficult to describe. I met him last summer and he had me work the technique.

It's very different from what I find as a kick, uses the entire body to make it work, and is martinally similar to a heel thrusting kick in Isshinryu's SunNuSu Kata. I really recommend the article, not that you can re-creat the technique from it, but to see how different it is.
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#233393 - 03/29/06 05:05 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: CVV]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
CVV, even within the Higa (Shodokan) line: (Shoreikan, Senbukan, Kenshinkai, Kodokan) there are differences, but as you and Victor mention, follow the same pattern. At risk of sounding like I'm stating the obvious, I suspect the differences are in the interpretation of them...since everyone has more or less their own. and if you are imagining a certain application when training, the movements are bound to be slightly different when you teach them.

but I think looking at the Higa line doesn't say for sure what Higaonna taught since there may have been collaboration to 'standardize' Seisan in Goju after Miyagi's death. I'm not certain though.

I finished reading the To'on-ryu articles, M. McKenna always does some great work. I've never seen that type of stomp in Goju. Seems like that application could work if you have hold of both the opponents arms so they couldn't lift your foot. having the arms would also explain the double chamber as well. A brute force wrist release? literally pealing the attacker off of you.

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#233394 - 04/07/06 11:07 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Victor Smith]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Victor, I can plan to be in NH during the weekend of May 13th,14th. either or both days.

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#233395 - 04/08/06 12:03 AM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Ed_Morris]
Victor Smith Offline
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Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Well then Ed we'll arragne for some time together to discuss Seisan or whatever else may hold interest. I'm sure that's thousands of topics before I run out of things to say <G>.
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#233396 - 04/08/06 07:30 AM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Victor Smith]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Sounds good. The 13th will be easy to remember

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#233397 - 04/20/06 12:03 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Ed_Morris]
nahate Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/06
Posts: 54
Loc: No VA suburbs of Wash DC
Ed, I have heard the "sun and moon" designation you are asking about. Instead of the more common three upward heel thrusts, the left hand moves similarly to the first open hand Tensho technique while the right hand traces a "feather block" within it. The sequence is repeated. "Sun and moon" suggests two similar, harmonious actions in a major and minor key. This interpretation of that Seisan sequence is taught in Kodokan GojuRyu by my sensei, Kimo Wall. (For his biography visit kodokanboston.org) It is reportedly the way Higa Seiko taught it and was the way Miyagi taught Seisan to his advanced students.

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#233398 - 04/20/06 01:07 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Ed_Morris]
Uchinanchu Offline
Member

Registered: 02/09/06
Posts: 99
Loc: Okinawa, Japan
Mr. Morris,
I'm not familiar with the english term (Except for the fact that those two heavenly bodies kanji make up the meibukan patch. Do you know what the Japanese terminology is in reference to the sequence you mentioned?
I can see how such a term might have come about. One technique waning as the other rises...I'll ask my teacher about it tomorrow and get back with you on it.
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All streams flow to the sea because it is lower than they are. Humility gives it its power.

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#233399 - 04/20/06 01:44 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: nahate]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Thank-you, nahate and Uchinanchu.

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#233400 - 04/20/06 01:52 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Victor Smith]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Victor, just realized the 14th is Mother's day...so I've only got the 13th available.

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#233401 - 04/21/06 12:25 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Ed_Morris]
Uchinanchu Offline
Member

Registered: 02/09/06
Posts: 99
Loc: Okinawa, Japan
Mr. Morris,
I talked to my Sensei this evening about your 'sun and moon' reference. He didn't mention anything about a specific technique being called that, but he did say that the sun and moon is an aspect of the kata itself, referring to the In Yo or hard soft balance that is focussed upon within the form. The 'Sun' being the hard aspect (outer area of the limbs that are used to protect the 'Moon' or softer, under areas of the body and limbs.
Sorry I could'nt be more helpful, I know this answer can be seen within pretty much the entire Goju system's forms and philosophy. I'm sure I probably hav'nt mentioned anything here that you did'nt already know.
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All streams flow to the sea because it is lower than they are. Humility gives it its power.

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#233402 - 04/21/06 02:41 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Uchinanchu]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
actually, together with nahate's response it makes good sense...
I appreciate the replies.

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#233403 - 04/21/06 07:36 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Ed_Morris]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
found this gem from McCarthy Sensei (I hope he doesnt mind the link!!!) -

http://www.koryu-uchinadi.org/Aragaki_Seisan_&_Chokyu.pdf
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