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#233391 - 03/29/06 03:58 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Victor Smith]
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
I agree on the general seisan pattern they all have.

Within my experience, the shitei seisan (JKF-WKF approved version for competition) is the Jundokan version with standardised stances and kick.(shiko dachi, mae geri). The older version I was thaught has different perspective like seisan dachi with fumikomi geri (footstomp kick) or heelkick into the inner thy or loin (in place of standard mae geri). Yet I do not exactly know where these differences come from. When I ask about them I get explained 'koryu', old way.

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#233392 - 03/29/06 04:09 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: CVV]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
CVV,

The article by Mario McKenna in Meibukan Magazine showing that Tou'on Ryu leg maneuver is really difficult to describe. I met him last summer and he had me work the technique.

It's very different from what I find as a kick, uses the entire body to make it work, and is martinally similar to a heel thrusting kick in Isshinryu's SunNuSu Kata. I really recommend the article, not that you can re-creat the technique from it, but to see how different it is.
_________________________
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#233393 - 03/29/06 05:05 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: CVV]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
CVV, even within the Higa (Shodokan) line: (Shoreikan, Senbukan, Kenshinkai, Kodokan) there are differences, but as you and Victor mention, follow the same pattern. At risk of sounding like I'm stating the obvious, I suspect the differences are in the interpretation of them...since everyone has more or less their own. and if you are imagining a certain application when training, the movements are bound to be slightly different when you teach them.

but I think looking at the Higa line doesn't say for sure what Higaonna taught since there may have been collaboration to 'standardize' Seisan in Goju after Miyagi's death. I'm not certain though.

I finished reading the To'on-ryu articles, M. McKenna always does some great work. I've never seen that type of stomp in Goju. Seems like that application could work if you have hold of both the opponents arms so they couldn't lift your foot. having the arms would also explain the double chamber as well. A brute force wrist release? literally pealing the attacker off of you.

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#233394 - 04/07/06 11:07 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Victor Smith]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
Victor, I can plan to be in NH during the weekend of May 13th,14th. either or both days.

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#233395 - 04/08/06 12:03 AM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Ed_Morris]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Well then Ed we'll arragne for some time together to discuss Seisan or whatever else may hold interest. I'm sure that's thousands of topics before I run out of things to say <G>.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#233396 - 04/08/06 07:30 AM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Victor Smith]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
Sounds good. The 13th will be easy to remember

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#233397 - 04/20/06 12:03 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Ed_Morris]
nahate Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/06
Posts: 54
Loc: No VA suburbs of Wash DC
Ed, I have heard the "sun and moon" designation you are asking about. Instead of the more common three upward heel thrusts, the left hand moves similarly to the first open hand Tensho technique while the right hand traces a "feather block" within it. The sequence is repeated. "Sun and moon" suggests two similar, harmonious actions in a major and minor key. This interpretation of that Seisan sequence is taught in Kodokan GojuRyu by my sensei, Kimo Wall. (For his biography visit kodokanboston.org) It is reportedly the way Higa Seiko taught it and was the way Miyagi taught Seisan to his advanced students.

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#233398 - 04/20/06 01:07 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Ed_Morris]
Uchinanchu Offline
Member

Registered: 02/09/06
Posts: 99
Loc: Okinawa, Japan
Mr. Morris,
I'm not familiar with the english term (Except for the fact that those two heavenly bodies kanji make up the meibukan patch. Do you know what the Japanese terminology is in reference to the sequence you mentioned?
I can see how such a term might have come about. One technique waning as the other rises...I'll ask my teacher about it tomorrow and get back with you on it.
_________________________
All streams flow to the sea because it is lower than they are. Humility gives it its power.

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#233399 - 04/20/06 01:44 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: nahate]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
Thank-you, nahate and Uchinanchu.

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#233400 - 04/20/06 01:52 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Victor Smith]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
Victor, just realized the 14th is Mother's day...so I've only got the 13th available.

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