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#233321 - 02/23/06 07:05 AM Seisan - The Universal kata ?
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Just thought it would be nice to discuss any aspect of the Seisan tradition as it is an important foundation level kata for most Okinawan systems, and appears in most mainstream Japanese systems.

From my persective im fairly happy that it is a very old kata, origionally from China and likely to be heavily influenced by the Tiger systems.

I look at Seisan as the first true application driven kata as it is very broad in its teachings, and is obviously teaching solid combat principles, a truly great masterpiece.

Regarding the name translation, im happy that it simply means '13', be- interested in your views on this and perhaps what the -13 actually is trying to convey.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#233322 - 02/23/06 10:30 AM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: shoshinkan]
Joss Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 567
I never connected the name in regard to a number - just as regarding the stance.

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#233323 - 02/23/06 10:31 AM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: shoshinkan]
Victor Smith Offline
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Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Jim,

Seisan is a foundation level kata in some Okinawan systems (such as my Isshinryu practice) but in many others it is an intermediate study (such as uechi) or an advanced one such as in Goju Ryu. All these traditions possess similar and different practices.

The most interesting use of the meaning of '13' I've heard goes back to a chinese stylist that claims the embusen of the form (isshinryu's) forms the symbol for '13'. But this is beyond my personal knowledge to explain as I don't do Chinese or Japanese.
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victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#233324 - 02/23/06 11:37 AM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Joss]
shoshinkan Offline
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Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
actually I have never worked or seen the 'seisan' stance, can you give me an idea what system you practise and a description of the stance.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#233325 - 02/23/06 11:41 AM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Victor Smith]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Hi Victor,


Very true that the Seisan study is set at different levels between systems, I wonder why that is?
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#233326 - 02/23/06 12:01 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: shoshinkan]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Shoshinkan:

Where the kata came from, what it "meant" I cannot know. All I can do with certainty is explore the kata as I understand it currently. If I understand the what & why's of how we demonstrate it... I am far, far ahead of the game.

Why it might be called 13...how can we possibly know? And once "knowing", what fundamental value will that hold? Some strangely contend "13" refers to the number of breaths done during the kata. (in & out =2) Others actually maintain there are 13 opponents defeated. Some propose it is a philosphic designation (ie Buddhist/Taoist) whereby that number has unknown serious importance.

Whatever we believe... will that knowledge help deciper the movements, subtlities, nuances? If not, it is a curiousity but not especially helpful I fear... I wish I had the definative answer for you, but the question leads to madness

J

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#233327 - 02/23/06 12:04 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: shoshinkan]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Shoshinkan:

Seisan is an onion, with many layers. Keep peeling and we find new things at time. Learn new receipes and the old layers have new uses?

Who has best the "seisan cookbook"...?

J (time for lunch)

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#233328 - 02/23/06 12:10 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Ronin1966]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
well, erm thanks for that! LOL, indeed all kata is an onion, thats a given.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#233329 - 02/23/06 12:29 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: shoshinkan]
Joss Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 567
Seisan dachi is a forward stance, 60/40 weight on front foot. Feet are about shoulder width and deep enough to leave a fist length gap between you forward heel and rear leg knee if you lower you rear leg knee to the ground. Both feet are pointed to the front.

This is so in both Ryukyu Hon Kenpo/Kobujitsu and Chito Ryu. I don't know about other ryu.

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#233330 - 02/23/06 12:39 PM Re: Seisan - The Universal kata ? [Re: Ronin1966]
WuXing Offline
Member

Registered: 10/24/05
Posts: 481
Loc: Idaho, USA
If Seisan is an original Shaolin form, then the number thirteen would be Buddhist symbolism. Buddhism has lots of numbers of things. 13 could be the eight-fold path and the five precepts. I don't know if there's anything that is 13 by itself.

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