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#233191 - 02/22/06 07:22 PM Karate master and student conversation...
founderofryoute1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/22/06
Posts: 88
Loc: Birmingham, UK
An imaginary conversation between a master and student
(This is karate related)

Master: “Kata were recorded in order to teach self defence.”

Student: “Why don’t kata look like you are fighting an imaginary opponent?”

Master: “Kata act as a document for techniques. They are not supposed to be taken so literally.”

Student: “Why does one often have to adapt the movements found in kata in order to use them for self defence?”

Master: “Kata document principles not specific techniques.”

Student: “Why do kata teach many body habits that are unlike the body habits required in pugilism?”

Master: “Kata contain adaptable principles and not specific principles of various pugilistic methods.”

Student: “In that case how do you know that kata definitely related to pugilism?”

Master: “In documented history kata have always been associated with self defence.”

Student: “How do you know that kata were associated with self defence prior to documented history?”

Master: “I don’t know, but I believe that kata were recorded in order to teach self defence.”

Student: “Why do you believe that?”

Master: “It’s what my master told me.”

Student: “And why did you believe him?”

Master: “It’s what his master told him.”

Student: “But that doesn’t make it true.”

Master: “Granted, but you can either choose to believe it or choose not do karate!”

Student: “Isn’t there another way?”

Master: “I suppose you could admit that you don’t know what kata are for.”

Student: “Why didn’t you choose that path?”

Master: “How much confidence would you have in me as a master if I told you I didn’t know what kata are for?”

Student: “I’d probably ask why we bother practising them.”

Master: “And I would probably be inclined not to teach them and then I wouldn’t even be teaching karate. We’d be no different from, say, kickboxers.”

Student: “So karate exists because people doing it choose to believe that that kata were recorded in order to teach self defence.”

Master: “Exactly.”

Student: “So this belief really defines membership of the traditional karate community.”

Master: “Exactly.”

Student: “Funny, I never realised that karate was based on a belief. It’s a bit like a religion.”

Master: “Well there you go and now you know.”

Student: “Why didn’t you tell me when I first started practising?”

Master: “If I tell you that something that I believe is just a belief then this seems to devalue it. But you like karate don’t you so what’s the problem?”

Student: “You’ve got me there.”
_________________________
Martin Clewett - Ryoute - Double Hand Grappling, Grip Grappling and Double Circle Grappling

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#233192 - 02/22/06 08:18 PM Re: Karate master and student conversation... [Re: founderofryoute1]
traq Offline
Member

Registered: 11/16/05
Posts: 131
Loc: SoCal
this concept of kata vs. fighting technique is common among beginners, especially those who really just want to fight and not necessarily learn karate.

all I can say is if you keep at it long enough you'll figure it out.
_________________________
Adrian USKO Riverside dojo/ Madison Elem. after-school

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#233193 - 02/23/06 07:11 AM Re: Karate master and student conversation... [Re: founderofryoute1]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Interesting website, some pretty dark and moody tunes and cool side burns!!! Welcome to the forum Martin!
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#233194 - 02/23/06 08:06 AM Re: Karate master and student conversation... [Re: traq]
Galen Offline
Member

Registered: 11/07/04
Posts: 381
Quote:

this concept of kata vs. fighting technique is common among beginners, especially those who really just want to fight and not necessarily learn karate.

all I can say is if you keep at it long enough you'll figure it out.




While I see your point, you are acutally making his case for him.

To tell a beginner "you may not understand now, but if you keep at it, maybe one day you will" is a copout on the part of the instructor.

If an instructor cannot explain something as basic as the importance of kata, they either dont understand it themselves, or are too much into the dogma of the all knowing, all wise teacher, who chooses not to answer questions asked of him.

Why do we practice kata?

This is a fair and completely justified question any beginner should bee completely comfortable asking.

Any instructor worth his salt should be able AND willing to offer an answer that makes sense to the student.

Galen
_________________________
Nothing imperfect is the measure of anything!

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#233195 - 02/23/06 09:14 AM Re: Karate master and student conversation... [Re: Galen]
Kysogkram Offline
Member

Registered: 01/01/06
Posts: 137
Loc: Denmark
Im an Ashihara Karateka, so my observations may not apply to a more traditional Karate. All our Katas are easily understandable and Bunkai is an essential part of learning the Kata. We're expected to know all attacks for a Kata.

The way I view Katas will of course be influenced by this. To me a Kata demonstrates the "perfect" way of fighting. It's used to train proper movement and technique, which then in turn may be executed in a faster and more simplistic manner, in a real fight.

Of course this will be different in other styles as Bunkai doesn't necessarily seem to be obligatory, so I can see why it may be less obvious why you actually do kata.
_________________________
meh.

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#233196 - 02/23/06 10:47 AM Re: Karate master and student conversation... [Re: founderofryoute1]
fmorris Offline
Newbie

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 17
We allow a lot of contact where I train. Why would I give someone technique and allow them to use it on others with full force if they do not have the discipline or the respect for our traditions to learn forms? We freely admit that forms have little to do with how we fight, but they have alot to do with our practice as martial artists.

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#233197 - 02/23/06 11:14 AM Re: Karate master and student conversation... [Re: fmorris]
McSensei Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 1068
Loc: Kent, England
"We freely admit that forms have little to do with how we fight, but they have alot to do with our practice as martial artists."

If they have little to do with how you fight then why do them.
If your form practice has no functionality then you may as well be line dancing.
_________________________
http://www.semtexgym.co.uk/

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#233198 - 02/23/06 11:44 AM Re: Karate master and student conversation... [Re: McSensei]
fmorris Offline
Newbie

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 17
I don't remember writing that they had NO functionality. They just don't work like a fight. If you think any form works like fighting or sparring, even those that are designed to, you may someday be in for a rude awakening. If you don't believe it, try practicing only form and and spar with someone who practices fighting. Forms do teach a lot of useful basic skills involving striking ang blocking, the use of the body and power generation, etc.. You could read the post more carefully for other reasons to practice them.

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#233199 - 02/23/06 12:36 PM Re: Karate master and student conversation... [Re: fmorris]
Galen Offline
Member

Registered: 11/07/04
Posts: 381
Quote:

Forms do teach a lot of useful basic skills involving striking ang blocking, the use of the body and power generation, etc..




Ah but let me ask you this...why should I practice kata AND sparring? The things you offer here as benefits of kata I do agree with, however, these are not things exclusive to kata. I can also gather these benefits through sparring, bag work, shadow boxing etc.

In fact, I would go so far as to say that sparring, bag work etc. teaches these things far more effectively than kata. If my only goal is to learn how to fight, sure kata can help, but not nearly as much as sparring can.

Galen

p.s. Dont get me wrong, I love kata and believe whole-hardedly in the fact that it should be taught, but not for the reasons you state...
_________________________
Nothing imperfect is the measure of anything!

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#233200 - 02/23/06 01:00 PM Re: Karate master and student conversation... [Re: Galen]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
I believe kata should be used primarily as a tool, and a practice, the purpose of which is to ultimately allow the student to reveal themselves to themselves.

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#233201 - 02/23/06 01:03 PM Re: Karate master and student conversation... [Re: oldman]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Quote:

I believe kata should be used primarily as a tool, and a practice, the purpose of which is to ultimately allow the student to reveal themselves to themselves.




Does that make kata some sort of mirror then????
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#233202 - 02/23/06 01:11 PM Re: Karate master and student conversation... [Re: Gavin]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
The practicing of an art teaches us about others and it teaches us about ourselves. It is more like a window and a mirror. If we look through a window when it is sunny we see others . When it is dark we see our reflection.

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#233203 - 02/23/06 01:18 PM Re: Karate master and student conversation... [Re: oldman]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Cool explanation! Thanks mate!
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#233204 - 02/23/06 01:19 PM Re: Karate master and student conversation... [Re: oldman]
Galen Offline
Member

Registered: 11/07/04
Posts: 381
Quote:

The practicing of an art teaches us about others and it teaches us about ourselves. It is more like a window and a mirror. If we look through a window when it is sunny we see others . When it is dark we see our reflection.




No offense Oldman, as I do respect your opinion greatly, but this makes absolutely no sense to me.

If I were a beginner and my instructor said this to me, I would think he had a screw loose. Heck, I have been in the arts of 20 + years, and if my instructor said this to me, I would think he had a screw loose.

Therefore...you have a screw loose...

Seriously though, can you specifically explain what you mean, in terms that make sense relative to kata? How exactly does the practice of kata act like a mirror?? Or a window??

Galen
_________________________
Nothing imperfect is the measure of anything!

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#233205 - 02/23/06 02:08 PM Re: Karate master and student conversation... [Re: Galen]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Galen,
Let me first say I'm not offended. In previous posts you talked about the attributes that a person can possibly gain by practicing Karate. A person can aspire to be a Fighter or develope qualities like character or virtue, not that they are mutally exclusive. I apologize if the comment is obtuse or too poetic. Karate is like a window/mirror in the sense that the art becomes a paradigm through which we view the images we percieve regarding other and ourselves. How people approach the puzzle and challenge of hard training tells you a bit about that person. We are able to see them the most clearly when we don't project our conditioned ieads of who they are onto them. If my window is clean (free of conditioned ideas and predjudice) I will have a clearer understanding of them and make fewer erronious assumptions. The window is lense through which I view life and others. It might also be called ones "Schemas"
The art only serves as a mirror if I choose to use it that way. I use the word mirror as a metaphor. It is a way by which we gain awareness about ourselves to clearly and more accurately "see" or understand who we are. Lets say a new BB comes to our school. As I observe him practice I become aware that his technique is quite good maybe even better than mine. Along with that might come a twinge of jelousy or envy. Now I can Blame and hate that person for coming to the school and even feel fear that I may lose some standing in my little community. No one may even now that is going on inside of me. I might not even know it. If I'm using my practice as a mirror I will follow those revelations as I become aware of them. The awareness give me the freedom to choose how I will respond to this persons arrival instead of reacting out of my petty fears conditioned by my past experiences. The Idea of gaining insight to our state of mind is not particular to the practice of karate. You see it in many arts, the goal being the exploration, integration, and expression of an individual alone and in community.

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#233206 - 02/23/06 04:21 PM Re: Karate master and student conversation... [Re: oldman]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
I have to say Mark, that is a great explaination of inner growth as it relates to kata/MA practice. Read it a few times, and each time added some windex to my mirror & window.

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#233207 - 02/23/06 04:35 PM Re: Karate master and student conversation... [Re: Ed_Morris]
McSensei Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 1068
Loc: Kent, England
Heck, I just learn kata to help me learn how to fight.
_________________________
http://www.semtexgym.co.uk/

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#233208 - 02/23/06 08:44 PM Re: Karate master and student conversation... [Re: McSensei]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
you can get both aspects (the 'Do' and the 'Jutsu') of kata at once if you Zen task it.

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#233209 - 02/24/06 12:22 AM Re: Karate master and student conversation... [Re: oldman]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Quote:

It is more like a window and a mirror.




May I humbly just add that kata is the hammer and fighting skills / techniques are the nails?
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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#233210 - 02/24/06 08:14 AM Re: Karate master and student conversation... [Re: founderofryoute1]
Galen Offline
Member

Registered: 11/07/04
Posts: 381
Before I start, I just to let everyone know that I am very much a fan of kata, for a number of reasons, that I wont go in to just yet. My intention here is not to inflame or incite, but only to challenge old paradigms, and maybe, at the end of the day, re-examine our perspectives a wee bit. Never a bad thing, at least by my reckoning.

And away we go…

Quote:

In previous posts you talked about the attributes that a person can possibly gain by practicing Karate.




Just to be clear, this particular conversation started around kata and its value. Just so I am clear, are we expanding the scope to include all Karate study? Personally I would rather keep the conversation to kata. Its more in line with the original post, and it makes the conversation a little less convoluted.

Quote:

A person can aspire to be a Fighter or develop qualities like character or virtue, not that they are mutally exclusive. I apologize if the comment is obtuse or too poetic. Karate is like a window/mirror in the sense that the art becomes a paradigm through which we view the images we percieve regarding other and ourselves.




Apologies if I am being obtuse (and again I am relating this to kata), what I see here is an description of the belief of the effect of kata, as opposed to an explanation of how this is achieved. I think ‘how’ something is achieved goes an extremely long way toward convincing someone that the ‘what’ is true.

To draw an analogy, its much like telling someone who has had NO experience with airplanes that this huge metal thing can fly.

Yeah, right.

Its not until the novice either sees it fly or has it explained to them that they can start to believe and understand. With kata, since they cannot ‘see’ this effect, the only recourse is explanation, and again, I just don’t see the explanation here.

Quote:

How people approach the puzzle and challenge of hard training tells you a bit about that person. We are able to see them the most clearly when we don't project our conditioned ideals of who they are onto them. If my window is clean (free of conditioned ideas and predjudice) I will have a clearer understanding of them and make fewer erronious assumptions. The window is lense through which I view life and others. It might also be called ones "Schemas"




True enough, however can this not be said of other endeavors in the martial arts as well? This ‘window’ perception is not exclusive to kata training. I can ‘see’ this understanding of others through anything they do, to varying degrees. Sparring, self defense, even just their interactions with their fellow students and instructors. Heck, if we choose to look closely enough, this ‘window’ is present in every aspect of the human condition. It is not mutually exclusive to the martial arts.

Quote:

The art only serves as a mirror if I choose to use it that way. I use the word mirror as a metaphor. It is a way by which we gain awareness about ourselves to clearly and more accurately "see" or understand who we are. Lets say a new BB comes to our school. As I observe him practice I become aware that his technique is quite good maybe even better than mine. Along with that might come a twinge of jelousy or envy. Now I can Blame and hate that person for coming to the school and even feel fear that I may lose some standing in my little community. No one may even now that is going on inside of me. I might not even know it. If I'm using my practice as a mirror I will follow those revelations as I become aware of them. The awareness give me the freedom to choose how I will respond to this persons arrival instead of reacting out of my petty fears conditioned by my past experiences. The Idea of gaining insight to our state of mind is not particular to the practice of karate. You see it in many arts, the goal being the exploration, integration, and expression of an individual alone and in community.




Well said, however, again I don’t see the connection directly from this to the practice of kata, specifically. I think we have drifted a little from the original discussion, so in all honesty, I am not sure I see the relevance of this point in the context of the practice of kata.

As you said yourself,
Quote:

The Idea of gaining insight to our state of mind is not particular to the practice of karate.


. With this in mind, why then should I study karate? In truth, if this is a goal of training, can I not gather this understanding through other venues? Wherein is the justification then for the study of karate in general, and the study of kata, specifically?

Your ‘window / mirror’ analogy is not without merit. In fact, it is very well said, but again to relate it to the study of kata specifically, it falls short of offering justification for practicing kata.

Mr Morris…

Quote:

you can get both aspects (the 'Do' and the 'Jutsu') of kata at once if you Zen task it.




Zen task it????

One of the things I rally against in the martial arts is the ‘mystifying’ of arts. To a beginner, this sentence means absolutely nothing. To me, a practitioner of 20+ years, it means absolutely nothing. Please do not make the mistake of automatically marrying the martial arts and the Zen philosophy. My instructor used to say “Karate is moving Zen”. He never explained it. He just said it. Spoken word without explanation is little more than rhetoric.

Could you please, for my sake if I am the only ignorant one here, please clarify precisely what you mean? Many thanks.

McSensei

Quote:

Heck, I just learn kata to help me learn how to fight.




Can you please explain, in very clear and obvious terms, how you believe practicing kata makes you a better fighter? More than that, how does practicing kata make you a better fighter than shadow boxing would, or standing in a corner practicing individual technique, alone and in combination? Further, why not just fight?? If the goal is to be a better fighter (as you statements seems to infer), then what better way to get good at fighting than by fighting?

Why practice kata above other aspects of the arts? What does kata offer that I cant get elsewhere?

I know I sound argumentative, and again that is not my intention. I have seen far too many instructors in the Karate specifically practice and teach kata religiously without being able to explain to their students the real value. All of the justifications I have heard here thus far are not specific to kata. These benefits can attained through other aspects of the arts as well. If this is so, then why would eliminating kata from a system of karate be such a bad thing?

At the end of the day, here is my challenge (and please, if you do intend to respond, I would ask that you do so without the ‘mystical’ rhetoric that so often accompanies discussions on kata; or if you must engage in such digressions, at least offer explanation as to what you mean):

Pretend you are talking to a raw beginner, with no martial arts experience, and if you can, explain why kata is important. What benefit does kata offer than is not found in any other aspect of karate training?

Thanks for listening, and sorry for the long winded post.

Galen
_________________________
Nothing imperfect is the measure of anything!

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#233211 - 02/24/06 10:02 AM Re: Karate master and student conversation... [Re: Galen]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
I'll give it a shot Galen.

To the beginner kata offers balance,coordination,and focus. Once you understand the principles behind the movements you have the self defense of where to hit,how to hit,angle and direction of strikes.
Each move will show you a perfect defense to a specific attack,you can expand from there.
As I am discovering after several years of kata practice there is always something new to be learned from them.
I often see something new in them when watching others,I think to myself,"Hey! that looks just like this in that kata!" I get excited from it still.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#233212 - 02/24/06 11:30 AM Re: Karate master and student conversation... [Re: BrianS]
Galen Offline
Member

Registered: 11/07/04
Posts: 381
Quote:

To the beginner kata offers balance, coordination, and focus. Once you understand the principles behind the movements you have the self defense of where to hit, how to hit, angle and direction of strikes. Each move will show you a perfect defense to a specific attack, you can expand from there.




Not to deny any of these advantages, but are these not lessons that can be learned through other venues? Can you not learn these things without learning kata specifically?

Well, time to rock the boat, I think.

I don’t for one second believe that training in kata is a better method of learning something than the activity itself.

Let me explain.

If I want to be better at sparring, why not spar more? If I want to be better at self defense, then I should practice in a self defense context. How does practicing kata make a more effective method of teaching than actually working that which at which you want to be better?

Sure, you can break down the moves, and extrapolate defense techniques etc. from them, but I firmly believe that there are FAR more efficient methods to accomplish the same goal, rather than learning “X” number kata and spending the time breaking them down. Its indirect; it can be tedious, and if your goal is to be better at something else, then kata seems a really roundabout redundant road to take.

Now read my words carefully. I am NOT saying that you cant learn these things from kata. In fact, I firmly believe that, originally, kata were developed as a method to practice these things when open classes and training partners were not nearly so available as they are today. Having said that, kata offers a second rate path to achieving these ends.

I believe that there is NOTHING on a practical level that kata can teach you that cant be learned as effectively (if not more so) through more efficient means.

So why do I practice and teach kata?

I do believe that kata has value in and of itself. I think that kata offers an aesthetic beauty to karate that is missing otherwise. I believe it offers a foundation for FAR more focused concentration than any other pursuit in karate. I feel that kata offers me a peace of mind and completely solitary methodology of practicing technique. As well, spending the time breaking down these techniques forces the student to think creatively and independently.

I don’t feel that kata has anything to do with practical application of technique.

What’s more, I also feel that anyone who thinks that it does is simply trying to justify kata in a world where aesthetics are forced into second place behind practicality, and these practitioners cannot find a way to justify kata in terms of that practicality.

G
_________________________
Nothing imperfect is the measure of anything!

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#233213 - 02/24/06 11:42 AM Re: Karate master and student conversation... [Re: Galen]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Galen,
You are being annoyingly arguementative and I mean that in the best way possible.
You can deny the reasons I gave you and I could do the same for yours. But in the end it's not what you train or how you go about it,but if it can be effectively used to meet whatever purpose you are seeking,use it. Whether it be to look romantically pretty and gives you peace of mind or you could use it functionally for other things I stated.
Peace out brother.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#233214 - 02/24/06 11:53 AM Re: Karate master and student conversation... [Re: BrianS]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#233215 - 02/24/06 01:43 PM Re: Karate master and student conversation... [Re: Galen]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Galen,
Thanks for you thoughtful response. I have probabaly answered every question except the one you asked. Sorry in advance for the long answer. I don't feel like I can speak to the idea of kata alone as a tool. It exists as a part of an art, not the whole art. First let me start by saying that there are three things I never tell people.

1. You should get married.
2. You should have kids
3. You should practice Kata.



I’ve come to believe it’s best to let people make those decisions on their own. At the start of any endeavor it seems obvious enough that a person would know what they want but the longer I live the more I’m growing to believe that that is rarely the case. If that were the case we would simply determine our goal and move toward it or work backward from it creating a plan to achieve it. We all create for ourselves what can be referred to as a "compelling vision" or "compelling illusion" that inspires and motivates us to take action. Now the vision may have very little to do with reality but it can motivate us to take action. Of the 3 things I mentioned here are some of the compelling illusions that might go with them.

1. Cool I’ll get to have sex every day.
2. My kids will take care of me when I’m old.
3. Doing Karate (And Kata specifically) will make me
An untouchable fighting machine, the envy of every
man and the desire of every woman.


I apologize for going over the top a bit but I think you get my point. We all have ideas that motivate us at different times in our lives that give us a reason for getting out of bed in the morning. They may seem sensible or insane but they get us out of bed. Having said that I don’t encourage people to practice karate, or specifically Kata based systems is I don’t want to take the responsibility for crafting anyone’s vision but my own. At different stages of development it is natural for a person to practice "Magical thinking".
In childhood and adolescence it is natural and healthy. It may kind to point out the magician illusion to a child and say it is a trick but the child still thinks magically. As we develop our ideas should come more in line with reality as we mature. We diverge from reality at times when reality is too painful to bare. An example might be an oldman standing in a crowd of beautiful giggling coeds in a night class saying to himself "Yeah baby, I still got it". I have heard it said that our level of personal and spiritual development could be measured by how much reality we can see before turning away.
I think there is truth to that.

I’ll get to the question of kata specifically. Please be patient.

Even though I practice Karate and kata I’ll continue by saying that I don’t assume or believe that there are things available in it that are not available in other arts or venues. It simply doesn’t matter You may be in the Boy Scouts, Rock Climbing, or a knitting circle. I feel that practicing an art is about using that art to explore our worlds both inner and outer and ground us in relations and reality.

I feel I need to digress for a moment. I have many times in the last few days and weeks seen people use the word Mystical or Mysticism as a pejorative. Mysticism does not mean backward, uninformed or unscientific. It is a recognized and by many respected tradition in both eastern and western religious practices. In our exploration of the world and our place in it one of the things we are able to use is language. With that also come the limitations of language. There are times in the arts we practice and the lives we live words are unable to fully explain or express just what it is that happens in and to us. Historically even mythology being what it is "myth" has been used to express truth.

What we experience in practice and the personal growth that comes from it if there is any can be articulated in many ways. A person can use different words to explain the same concepts. Lets look at three.

1. The principle of Shuhari.
2. Psycho/social Development
3. Spiritual Formation.

Shuhari is made up of three Japanese words Shu Ha and Ri

Shu = To embrace tradition. This represents entering into a tradition or ryu
School or practice.

Ha= The mastering of the tradition and the techniques of the practice and

Ri= Transcendence of tradition or moving beyond.

In terms of methods that practice kata the mastery of them is just a part of that process of growth as experienced referred to as Shuhari. The growth takes place in the context and community of that art. It is experienced by the individual and recognized by those who have gone before. This again is not a reason to or an argument for the practice forms.
Forms are like a cereal, like Lucky Charms. They are part of a balanced diet and magically delicious. You don’t NEED to practice them at all. If one of a person's "Compelling illusions" is the desire to practice karate kata , have at it. On the other hand
If a Karateka is looking down their nose at a woman practicing the art of Quilting they are still missing the point.


The Role of Kata in Psycho/social Development and Spiritual Formation.

This is not intended to be a discussion of religion. The examples I will use are only to show that the process is similar regarding the growth towards a person’s maturity both in systems that are artistic, scientific or religious.

I’ll start by drawing on the work of M. Scott Peck in his book "Further Along the Road
Less Traveled" Peck describes a 4-stage process representing stages of Psychological or Spiritual maturity individuals. This is his list.

1. Chaotic / Antisocial
2. Formal /institutional
3. Skeptical/ Individual
4. Mystical/ Communal

Chaotic / Antisocial:
In this stage of development a persons life is often chaotic, disordered and even violent. They may feel they need something yet not know what it is.
They may feel threatened and seek out Martial arts to learn to Fight. If they enter a traditional school with an experienced teacher may begin sometimes for the first time in their lives to experience order and responsible discipline. In practicing Kata as part of that process a person that has or is living in ways that are antisocial ( not good for them or other) begins to conform to group behavior that establishes order. The mental and physical practice begins to provide benefits and the person begins to experience discipline as something of value instead of something onerous or as punishment. The student has reinforced for them the value of the practice. At this point they may think that the benefits are only to be found in the method they are participating in and become quite an obnoxious zealot.

Formal /Institutional:
In this period a person may begin to identify themselves with their art. I’m Shotokan,
I’m TKD. Again Forms are only part of the larger whole but at this point a practitioner may be a "company man" of sorts. The student "belongs" to or in this community He tows the line, works to maintain systems and doctrinal orthodoxy, martially speaking that is. He is asking and looking for the correct way. They seek out information from their teachers. At this point of growing power and understanding the individual is exposed to differing ideas and interpretation simply be the nature of their search for what is correct or true. This seeking for answers in kata and history leads to more questions.

Skeptical/ Individual:
In this period the students research and exposure causes them to see maybe for the first time some of the shortcomings of their system. This can cause disappointment and a cognitive dissonance when the student sees that what he once thought was the most formidable fighting system in the world is not foolproof or iron clad. This may also happen to be the period when the rose colored glasses fall off and they see their teacher as human. Many people will stop their practice at this point thinking it was all a sham when in fact it is entirely possible that no one ever lied to them it was just that their assumptions i.e. (Sex every night) were unrealistic. The external discipline from the previous stages, being internalized, serves as an internal locus of control to motivate and continue to learn without goading or reward. The other thing that is common is changing arts at this point. One philosopher refers to it as riding a donkey to your destination only to when reach your destination you dismount and get on another donkey and continue. The person identifies less with the group and works to make and find meaning. In this stage a person may sincerely be searching for their personal voice, practice, or way.


Mystical/ Communal:
In this stage the individual doesn’t think so much in terms of styles. They are able to see commonalties in diverse practices and people. There is less talk or concern in regard to "Us" or "Them" mine and your. There is a growing ability to see and experience the other as ourselves. With it and increase in compassion and empathy. The person having begun their journey as a frightened, dangerous, isolated individual is becoming a caring member of a community and world. That person has a connection with people living in their neighborhood and 19th century Okinawans that aren’t even alive but very present in what that created and contributed to the world. Earlier I spoke of the limitations of language. This is acknowledged and pointed at by Zen practitioners. Also by Lao Tzu.

We go out into the world trying to find our way. In doing so we begin to realize our way is not "the way". To paraphrase Lao Tzu, "The way that can be spoken of is not "The Way". In studying the arts we see a record of the paths others have traveled. As helpful as they are we are still left on our own to use the disciplines we prefer to create compelling illusions and visions filled with meaning and purpose until we no longer need them.

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#233216 - 02/24/06 01:49 PM Re: Karate master and student conversation... [Re: BrianS]
Galen Offline
Member

Registered: 11/07/04
Posts: 381
Quote:

I'll refer you to this.
http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/15832333/an/0/page/0#15832333






Brian

And my real name is Mitch, by the way...very pleased to meet you!

Anyway, my point is that I cant seem to find anyone who can explain the practical of kata in the manner I have laid out. There are plenty of people who claim that it does this and does that, but very few (none in fact) who can explain it logically in such terms.

Most reply as you do...that it can be used as stated, but without clear, explicit foundation for the use of kata in this context.

I have read the thread you quoted, and it does little more than make claims without foundation.

I am afraid that it is more than just 'you say this and I say that.'

It is a matter of being able to empirically, logically link the practice of kata to the practical side of the martial arts. The information you have offered, and the link, offer nothing in this vein. It is little more than conjecture.

I have looked for years for someone who could explain this link to me. When I started this search, it was with the FERVRENT hope that someone could answer this. I wanted to believe what I had been taught; that Kata was an instrumental and invaluable tool in the practical martial arts arsenal.

Over the years I have to come believe that it is not so. I am more than willing to entertain any such evidence, but at the end of the day, no one can offer anything but opinion. I have yet to see one logical, clearly rational explanation of the value of kata in a practical sense.

I fear our exchange has not accomplished this either.

Thanks for trying.

G
_________________________
Nothing imperfect is the measure of anything!

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#233217 - 02/24/06 01:53 PM Re: Karate master and student conversation... [Re: oldman]
Galen Offline
Member

Registered: 11/07/04
Posts: 381
Oldman

I apologize most profoundly for not being able to respond to your post in the manner it deserves. I am at work and am left with limited time.

I will honor your post with the time it deserves over the week end, when time is less pressing.

Thank you for the effort, and I promise to give it the attention it obviously requires.

Kudos

Galen
_________________________
Nothing imperfect is the measure of anything!

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#233218 - 02/24/06 02:10 PM Re: Karate master and student conversation... [Re: Galen]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Quote:

I don’t feel that kata has anything to do with practical application of technique.



When you do feel that, we can talk.

Oldman, another great post. I don't want to derail here, so look for a post in the Zen room soon.

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#233219 - 02/24/06 02:14 PM Re: Karate master and student conversation... [Re: Ed_Morris]
Galen Offline
Member

Registered: 11/07/04
Posts: 381
Quote:

Quote:

I don’t feel that kata has anything to do with practical application of technique.



When you do feel that, we can talk.




Oh, I am disappointed.

Believe me, I want to believe this, but I am too much the realist to do so without some kind of logical explanation, and I promise you that I have explored this at great length, with little success.

You have fallen into the trap / rut that so many others have.

You cannot explain it logically, so you default to the fact that the fault lays with me for not understanding.

Ah well. I was hoping for at least an effort at explaining rather that admitting defeat so easily.

Thanks anyway...

G
_________________________
Nothing imperfect is the measure of anything!

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#233220 - 02/24/06 02:20 PM Re: Karate master and student conversation... [Re: Galen]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Mitch,nice to meet you too. Thankyou for respecting my opinions. I truly did the best I could in words. If we met maybe I could impress you some,maybe not.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#233221 - 02/24/06 03:07 PM Re: Karate master and student conversation... [Re: Galen]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
no...you are the one who has fallen. You've 'pegged' me in exactly the opposite direction. how long have you been here? It would be helpful if people knew what Art(s) you study for how long, etc. there are introduction threads in each Art's respective forum I believe.

you think I'm 'a mythical thinker', 'illogical', 'cant hold an argument so revert to cryptic language', etc.

...or it could be that you don't even have a clue.

your snide attitude almost makes me want to just ignore you. but, my name has green on it, so I'll go the extra mile. First, 'Zen task' is a made-up term...the wink along with it was to the people reading who had a clue what I was referring to. which was the 'multitasking' thread in the Zen room.

in reguard to kata...I've talked about the same exact subject in other threads and didn't feel like having to do it all over again. my laziness, my bad...or you could try exploring the search function. there have been such things discussed before.

I'll summarize my position for you though: the only sure and scientific way is a fight to the death...but even then we'd need several fights in order to get a solid statistical average to sumize anything. since people can't fight and reset like video games, I guess it comes down to a matter of faith in your instructor. then your instructor having faith in you to teach you how to interpret kata, then faith in yourself in being able to execute these principles in a real life or death situation.

It's faith. even I know that and I'm a secular humanist, software engineer with a minor in mathematics.

nice meeting you. think less and feel more. or...don't. doesn't affect my study if you see the wisdom in kata practice or not.

[edit]
also, please fill out your profile when you have time.
I just noticed you've been on the forums for a while, so I edited my post accordingly. at first I assumed you were a noob here since just now you are starting to introduce yourself. I think in some of your past posts, I've mistaken you for 'Gavin' since the usernames are so similar in a glance.

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#233222 - 02/24/06 07:28 PM Re: Karate master and student conversation... [Re: Galen]
McSensei Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 1068
Loc: Kent, England
My turn.

"McSensei


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Heck, I just learn kata to help me learn how to fight.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Can you please explain, in very clear and obvious terms, how you believe practicing kata makes you a better fighter? More than that, how does practicing kata make you a better fighter than shadow boxing would, or standing in a corner practicing individual technique, alone and in combination? Further, why not just fight?? If the goal is to be a better fighter (as you statements seems to infer), then what better way to get good at fighting than by fighting?"


You want it explained as if you were a beginner. OoooooooooK

*McSensei sighs at yet another white belts naive question*

"Well, you see it's like this....
Kata makes me a better fighter by firstly teaching me a set of techniques that I could use in a self defence situation. Then it goes on to teach me an even more basic set of principles that would give me a big advantage over an untrained assailant in said situation.
There are other ways I could train to gain the same knowledge but kata gives me the whole deal, as far as solo training goes, in one easy to use package. Something I can take away and practice away from my instructor, so I don't have to remember this combination and that drill.

You see, kata is always being likened to a tool. Well, I prefer to see it as a vehicle. As martial artists we all have roughly the same destination, but how we get there- that's the thing. You may travel by car, while I travel by plane. Someone else may prefer say, helicopters. They all get us where we were going, but in different ways. No way is the best way, just different ways. That is what is so rich about the martial arts."

*Confuzzled white belt then asks...
"..but McSensei, why not just get in loads of fights?"

*A wry smile...*

"You could choose that vehicle if you wanted to, but it usually ends up with a detour at Her Majestys Pleasure.
That's not big and it certainly ain't clever."


So Mitch, (if you don't mind me calling you that, I feel we should be on first name terms by now.....you can call me...
..Mc ) does that do it for ya?
_________________________
http://www.semtexgym.co.uk/

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#233223 - 02/24/06 10:54 PM Re: Karate master and student conversation... [Re: McSensei]
bobmax Offline
Member

Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 26
Loc: toronto,ontario,canada
Quote:

Heck, I just learn kata to help me learn how to fight.




ok, so when fighting you leave your fist out after a punch until your next movement begins? You turn left after a left lunge punch because you're trained to do so in movement #5 in taikyoku shodan? C'mon.

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#233224 - 02/24/06 11:15 PM Re: Karate master and student conversation... [Re: BrianS]
bobmax Offline
Member

Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 26
Loc: toronto,ontario,canada
Quote:

I'll give it a shot Galen.

To the beginner kata offers balance,coordination,and focus. Once you understand the principles behind the movements you have the self defense of where to hit,how to hit,angle and direction of strikes.
Each move will show you a perfect defense to a specific attack,you can expand from there.
As I am discovering after several years of kata practice there is always something new to be learned from them.
I often see something new in them when watching others,I think to myself,"Hey! that looks just like this in that kata!" I get excited from it still.




I like your response. And it touches on what I think the true (if only) purpose of kata is: kata is movement incorporating karate techniques. And nothing more. It is not MEANT to be practical, and it is not practical. If you learn how to fight by practising kata you will fail. If, however, you are the undisputed no-holds-barred fighting champion of the world and you have never applied yourself to the mastery of a single kata for the better part of a year, you're simply missing out on life.

This is kata's only justification: it is what it is. It is like abstract art, it doesn't represent, it is pure aesthetics. Everyone misses this point. Kata without practical application is what the masters intended, and what we might see again; beautiful movement where beauty is described in terms like 'solid', 'precise', 'grounded', 'focussed' and 'flowing'.

This is outside the scope of ufc fights and televised tournament-style events.

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#233225 - 02/24/06 11:50 PM Re: Karate master and student conversation... [Re: bobmax]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
On the other hand, two of the 4 students of mine that have been assaulted have used techniques directly from katas.The other two used a straight punch, and a side kick. Each one against significantly larger opponants. So if they were created soley for asthetic purposes the old guys must have considered dropping or subduing a a$$hole in a Walmart parking lot a thing of beauty.

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#233226 - 02/25/06 12:15 AM Re: Karate master and student conversation... [Re: oldman]
bobmax Offline
Member

Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 26
Loc: toronto,ontario,canada
Quote:

On the other hand, two of the 4 students of mine that have been assaulted have used techniques directly from katas.The other two used a straight punch, and a side kick. Each one against significantly larger opponants. So if they were created soley for asthetic purposes the old guys must have considered dropping or subduing a a$$hole in a Walmart parking lot a thing of beauty.




ok this is perfect it encapsulates in one post the whole kata-as-practical argument.

you wrote: "two of the 4 students of mine that have been assaulted have used techniques directly from katas.The other two used a straight punch, and a side kick."

(first, and paranthetically, are there no straight punches or side kicks in any of your style's kata?) And second, OF COURSE many basic techniques are incorporated into kata, and of course some will work. That is not the point of this discussion. If kata were simply a physical recitation of a style's techniques, then every kata would begin with a natural stance, transition into a block and strike, go back to the natural stance, into a different block and counter, etc. (not a bad idea in my opinion). To say I used a reverse punch in a physical encounter, and then to credit my kata training for its effectiveness (how many reverse punches are there in your style's kata, after all) is vacuous. Kata is about transitions, balance, rhythm, symmetry and concentration, values almost irrelevant in a real encounter.

Consider this: if I come at you right now any way I want, will you respond by rote from a kata?

The answer is 'no'.

And that's ok. Kata is still a valuable thing. It's ok...

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#233227 - 02/25/06 12:33 AM Re: Karate master and student conversation... [Re: Ed_Morris]
bobmax Offline
Member

Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 26
Loc: toronto,ontario,canada
Quote:

Quote:

I don’t feel that kata has anything to do with practical application of technique.



When you do feel that, we can talk.




Man, that's arrogant.

I think you should know something: I happen to be acquainted with Galen (we compete on the same tournament circuit) and I'll tell you this; in the thirty years I've been studying and teaching I haven't seen a more consistent winner in the kata competitive circuit than this man. He doesn't take his posts lightly, and you would be well advised not to dismiss his views on kata as the ramblings of a ufc wannabe...

edited to fix quote


Edited by MattJ (02/25/06 08:54 AM)

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#233228 - 02/25/06 03:37 AM Re: Karate master and student conversation... [Re: bobmax]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Quote:

Kata is about transitions, balance, rhythm, symmetry and concentration, values almost irrelevant in a real encounter.

Consider this: if I come at you right now any way I want, will you respond by rote from a kata?

The answer is 'no'




What are the ways that you can 'come' at oldman except a punch, a kick, a grap? Oldman (or any of his students) will certainly not respond "by rote" from a particular kata, but with his "transitions, balance, rhythm, symmetry and concentration" (all of which according to you are almost irrelevant in a real encounter) he will have an appropriate technique from a kata to defend himself against you, "right now" if necessary
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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#233229 - 02/25/06 08:18 AM Re: Karate master and student conversation... [Re: bobmax]
McSensei Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 1068
Loc: Kent, England
"This is kata's only justification: it is what it is. It is like abstract art, it doesn't represent, it is pure aesthetics. Everyone misses this point. Kata without practical application is what the masters intended, and what we might see again; beautiful movement where beauty is described in terms like 'solid', 'precise', 'grounded', 'focussed' and 'flowing'."

It is this attitude to kata that has seen the mma crowd ridicule karate.
If this is what you genuinely believe then you are completely missing the point and no amount of explanation is going to help. It's quite sad but you are really missing out on something here.
All I will say is get yourself a copy of Iain Abernethys book "Bunkai Jutsu," read it and then come back with the idea of kata as purely aesthetic.
_________________________
http://www.semtexgym.co.uk/

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#233230 - 02/25/06 08:29 AM Re: Karate master and student conversation... [Re: bobmax]
McSensei Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 1068
Loc: Kent, England
"ok, so when fighting you leave your fist out after a punch until your next movement begins? You turn left after a left lunge punch because you're trained to do so in movement #5 in taikyoku shodan? C'mon."

The above statement shows up your unparalelled ignorance in this subject.
If all you think Taigyoku shodan is is a collection of blocks and punches then you really should find yourself an instructor that knows a little more about the art of karate and is not still teaching this kind of ignorant rubbish.

I bet you still think blocks are...blocks.

BBBWWAAAAHHHAAAHHAAAAA
_________________________
http://www.semtexgym.co.uk/

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#233231 - 02/25/06 01:56 PM Re: Karate master and student conversation... [Re: bobmax]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Bob,
Perhaps I was unclear. I'll try again. I excluded the punch and kick from consideration not because they aren't in my kata. I seperated them because they are practiced outside of the form. In your previous post you stated the "only" purpose kata was created for. My point was not to limit the creators intent by accepting your use of the word
"only" I take a very broad view of the potential of any activity. To use always, never or "only" excludes possibilities that the creators of the kata may have considered valid and intentional based on their own words. Let me add I have nothing but respect for Gavin. I find that we have much in common. One other thing. Don't feel the need to be the standard bearer for the practical training and application of kata. I simply shared from my experience two situation that happened in actuality and not theory. I don't know if you intended it but I find your "vacuos' comment condescending. You don't need to go there.

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#233232 - 02/25/06 03:10 PM Re: Karate master and student conversation... [Re: oldman]
jamesd Offline
Member

Registered: 07/06/05
Posts: 145
Loc: Essex,England
Hi All,

I've been reading everyone's posts and its interesting to see other people's idea's and purposes for practicing kata, its quite clear opinions vary but IMO none of the views shared can be classed right or wrong, IMO whatever you want to achieve from practicing kata is there to be found and taken, its up to the individual to decide what they want to gain from it, I myself practice kata completely from a combat point of view, i'll disect a kata and explore the applications/angles and direction etc, if you look beyond the physical applications you'll soon realise that there are other benefits for practicing kata for eg: the explosive energy that is felt when practicing Nai Hanchi, the feeling of being connected and rooted to the ground when performing Sanchin etc, also what about the intention and mind set that are developed from practicing kata these are key factors to surviving a real life situation, I feel that these views can be explained to a beginner but not appreciated by the beginner until they've found them for themselves, kind regards,

James.
_________________________
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#233233 - 02/25/06 10:51 PM Re: Karate master and student conversation... [Re: jamesd]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Quote:

you'll soon realise that there are other benefits for practicing kata for eg: the explosive energy that is felt when practicing Nai Hanchi, the feeling of being connected and rooted to the ground when performing Sanchin etc, also what about the intention and mind set that are developed from practicing kata these are key factors...




Thanks for putting in better words on my "hammer & nails" comment
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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#233234 - 02/26/06 12:13 AM Re: Karate master and student conversation... [Re: oldman]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
This is what I intended to say in my previous post which I was unable to edit.
Quote:

"I" don't feel the need to be the standard bearer for the practical training and application of kata.




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#233235 - 02/26/06 04:47 AM Re: Karate master and student conversation... [Re: ButterflyPalm]
jamesd Offline
Member

Registered: 07/06/05
Posts: 145
Loc: Essex,England
No Worries mate! I liked the hammer and nails quote! regards,

James.
_________________________
www.hardfasthandway.com

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#233236 - 02/26/06 06:18 PM Re: Karate master and student conversation... [Re: McSensei]
bobmax Offline
Member

Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 26
Loc: toronto,ontario,canada
put a pure kata man against a pure fighting man and what do you you think the result will be? Don't insult the intelligence of the forum-reading public.

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#233237 - 02/26/06 06:42 PM Re: Karate master and student conversation... [Re: ButterflyPalm]
bobmax Offline
Member

Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 26
Loc: toronto,ontario,canada
ah, there is so much more to it, and therein lies the beauty. I come in with what appears to be a grab, but.. ha! it is a kick. What looks like a punch is in fact a different punch. Subtlety is the name of the fighting game, and obviousness of intention is the name of the kata-as-self-defence game. But hiding one's intentions is a concept taught even to orange belts. Why do black belts continue to respond, in kata, to moronically clear attacks?

It's because YOU CAN'T BE PERFECT WHEN IN COMBAT!!!

Kata is about perfection. Knowing what's coming and reponding in as efficient a manner as possible.

Combat is about winning. Perfectly or, usually, not.

Never the twain shall meet

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#233238 - 02/26/06 06:44 PM Re: Karate master and student conversation... [Re: bobmax]
McSensei Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 1068
Loc: Kent, England
My mistake, I should have added...

*for those that need stating the obvious*

...that neither training method is exclusive or preclusive.
_________________________
http://www.semtexgym.co.uk/

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#233239 - 02/26/06 07:08 PM Re: Karate master and student conversation... [Re: bobmax]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
bobmax,

Ofcourse noone was suggesting doing just kata and becoming a proficient fighter and for those who are strictly doing ma for nhb events I wouldn't waste my time with kata,it's not what it's for.

Do kata or do not.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#233240 - 02/26/06 07:38 PM Re: Karate master and student conversation... [Re: McSensei]
bobmax Offline
Member

Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 26
Loc: toronto,ontario,canada
ok your reply is calming me down; you're not the typical respondent who feels the egoistic need to defend kata as some sort of mystical secret-vault, simply because they were taught to revere, or they themselves like, kata (NOT THAT ANYTHING IS WRONG WITH THOSE; I AM AMONG THEM!)

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#233241 - 02/26/06 07:53 PM Re: Karate master and student conversation... [Re: bobmax]
McSensei Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 1068
Loc: Kent, England
...and I, for one enjoy aesthetic kata as much as anyone.
In fact, I am my old styles, reigning national champion in the kata event. ( I just wanted to get that in )

It's just that I know it has so much more.
_________________________
http://www.semtexgym.co.uk/

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#233242 - 02/26/06 08:00 PM Re: Karate master and student conversation... [Re: BrianS]
bobmax Offline
Member

Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 26
Loc: toronto,ontario,canada
Quote:

bobmax,

Ofcourse noone was suggesting doing just kata and becoming a proficient fighter and for those who are strictly doing ma for nhb events I wouldn't waste my time with kata,it's not what it's for.

Do kata or do not.




oh yes lots of people are suggesting that kata makes a proficient fighter; it is to those people i am responding. not many people out there realize that it is 'do or not do'.

but it is true that the more time we spend on kata the less we spend fighting. it is a matter of priorities.

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#233243 - 02/27/06 06:36 AM Re: Karate master and student conversation... [Re: bobmax]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Quote:

oh yes lots of people are suggesting that kata makes a proficient fighter; it is to those people i am responding.




Perhaps you meant to say "...kata ALONE makes a proficient fighter...?"

I don't recall anyone around here saying that.

Coming to your 'grab is not a grab, punch is not a punch' Well, this happens more in tournament fighting where one usually try not to over commit too much as there is time and space to try "tricks" But in a non-tournament fight, somebody has to commit and over commit in order to really get your strike in hard to hurt your opponent.

This in my view is where the techniques found in kata can come in useful. The negative sentiments toward kata stems from the need to have your attacker commit himself for the techniques to work; hence your comment "... grab is not a grab..." If your attacker or if no one commits himself, there wouldn't be a fight and there would be no using of kata techniques.
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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#233244 - 02/27/06 06:24 PM Re: Karate master and student conversation... [Re: founderofryoute1]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
Founderofryoute 1

Can you say "strawman" and if so do you know what it means???

The reason I ask is that its a perfect example.

Pretty easy to lead a conversaion to where you want it to go--WHEN YOUR WRITING BOTH SIDES OF IT.

I swear to god (little g!!!) half the time people people abuse the right to free speech.

Why bother to learn to speak/write/communicate at all if all your going to do with the ability is muck things up.

That's not much different than learning a martial art for the sole purpose of attacking, hurting and robbing people.

Hmmm, I'll make my VERY FIRST post on a new site to be one as seemingly "contoversial" a topic as I can think up, then I'll link it back to my OWN website.
Nobody will ever figure out that I'm doing it to drum up business.

Sheesh.


Edited by cxt (02/27/06 06:33 PM)

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#233245 - 02/28/06 02:46 PM Re: Karate master and student conversation... [Re: cxt]
founderofryoute1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/22/06
Posts: 88
Loc: Birmingham, UK
cxt

Firstly you should understand that I am writing a book. Part of this book is devoted to belief systems within traditional karate. The original post is an extract from the book. It is an example of one possible conservation that a sensei might have with his student assuming he believed that kata where originally designed for fighting. Therefore I don’t think the term ‘straw man’ really applies in this situation as it is only one of many possible fictional conversations. It would hardly be practical for me to post all such conversations. The reason I posted this particular one is because I believe that this sums up the most commonly held point of view regarding the original purpose of karate kata.

Secondly, I have not mucked anything up. All I have done is drawn attention to the possibility that for some sensei traditional karate is founded on a belief that is not carefully stated as such to beginners. If this mucks things up for you then I apologize. Furthermore I apologize to anyone else who feels that this mucks things up.

Thirdly, I don’t see what is wrong with me putting my interests and website in my signature. Other people do it, including the one of the moderators of this forum, so why can’t I?
_________________________
Martin Clewett - Ryoute - Double Hand Grappling, Grip Grappling and Double Circle Grappling

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#233246 - 02/28/06 03:07 PM Re: Karate master and student conversation... [Re: founderofryoute1]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
Founder

Actaully no, what you have done is post a one-sided, quite litteral "straw man" to "support" your viewpoint.

That its utter fallicious counts as "mucking things up."

If you don't know why, you should look up the term "straw-man" and compare and contrast with your post.


To illustrate, here's another "fictional conversatuion"

Master--"Have you cheacked out the "double handed grappling" site yet?"

Student--"Yes, weird looking guys doing totally inpractical things, vs staged, "scripted" attacks."

Master- "So you don't think they know what they are doing?"

Student- "How could they? Heck, I'm older than these guys, been around the block more, had more experience, etc"

Master- "What do you mean?"

Student-"Well I have been in fights before and the first thing someone would do is grab you by all that long scraggly hair and then beat the snot out of you."

Master--"good point"


Now is that an ACCURATE "fictional conversation" of you and your website??

Or did I just build my own one sided, "straw man" and paint your name on it???

So if YOUR "fictional conversation" is "OK" then so is MINE.

Get it???????

Its set to be "contaversial" so as to get folks to click the link back to your own website--thus generating "hits" and "traffic" and NOW presumably to generate sales of your book.

As to your other posit--is the "mod" in question selling anything?
And if so, do you think that maybe since he has been around quite a while, earned some cred--with you being a total "newbie" to the site with no cred--you might just be seen as a bit "different????"

As such this should count as advertising and I would like a few pounds kicked my way for my help.

I take PayPal.


Edited by cxt (02/28/06 03:08 PM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#233247 - 02/28/06 06:51 PM Re: Karate master and student conversation... [Re: cxt]
McSensei Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 1068
Loc: Kent, England
It was an interesting little thread there for a while regardless of the alleged ulterior motives of the poster.
Gone west now though!


Edited by McSensei (02/28/06 09:22 PM)
_________________________
http://www.semtexgym.co.uk/

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