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#233241 - 02/26/06 07:53 PM Re: Karate master and student conversation... [Re: bobmax]
McSensei Offline

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 1069
Loc: Kent, England
...and I, for one enjoy aesthetic kata as much as anyone.
In fact, I am my old styles, reigning national champion in the kata event. ( I just wanted to get that in )

It's just that I know it has so much more.

#233242 - 02/26/06 08:00 PM Re: Karate master and student conversation... [Re: BrianS]
bobmax Offline

Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 26
Loc: toronto,ontario,canada


Ofcourse noone was suggesting doing just kata and becoming a proficient fighter and for those who are strictly doing ma for nhb events I wouldn't waste my time with kata,it's not what it's for.

Do kata or do not.

oh yes lots of people are suggesting that kata makes a proficient fighter; it is to those people i am responding. not many people out there realize that it is 'do or not do'.

but it is true that the more time we spend on kata the less we spend fighting. it is a matter of priorities.

#233243 - 02/27/06 06:36 AM Re: Karate master and student conversation... [Re: bobmax]
ButterflyPalm Offline

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia

oh yes lots of people are suggesting that kata makes a proficient fighter; it is to those people i am responding.

Perhaps you meant to say "...kata ALONE makes a proficient fighter...?"

I don't recall anyone around here saying that.

Coming to your 'grab is not a grab, punch is not a punch' Well, this happens more in tournament fighting where one usually try not to over commit too much as there is time and space to try "tricks" But in a non-tournament fight, somebody has to commit and over commit in order to really get your strike in hard to hurt your opponent.

This in my view is where the techniques found in kata can come in useful. The negative sentiments toward kata stems from the need to have your attacker commit himself for the techniques to work; hence your comment "... grab is not a grab..." If your attacker or if no one commits himself, there wouldn't be a fight and there would be no using of kata techniques.
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

#233244 - 02/27/06 06:24 PM Re: Karate master and student conversation... [Re: founderofryoute1]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5844
Loc: USA
Founderofryoute 1

Can you say "strawman" and if so do you know what it means???

The reason I ask is that its a perfect example.

Pretty easy to lead a conversaion to where you want it to go--WHEN YOUR WRITING BOTH SIDES OF IT.

I swear to god (little g!!!) half the time people people abuse the right to free speech.

Why bother to learn to speak/write/communicate at all if all your going to do with the ability is muck things up.

That's not much different than learning a martial art for the sole purpose of attacking, hurting and robbing people.

Hmmm, I'll make my VERY FIRST post on a new site to be one as seemingly "contoversial" a topic as I can think up, then I'll link it back to my OWN website.
Nobody will ever figure out that I'm doing it to drum up business.


Edited by cxt (02/27/06 06:33 PM)

#233245 - 02/28/06 02:46 PM Re: Karate master and student conversation... [Re: cxt]
founderofryoute1 Offline

Registered: 02/22/06
Posts: 88
Loc: Birmingham, UK

Firstly you should understand that I am writing a book. Part of this book is devoted to belief systems within traditional karate. The original post is an extract from the book. It is an example of one possible conservation that a sensei might have with his student assuming he believed that kata where originally designed for fighting. Therefore I donít think the term Ďstraw maní really applies in this situation as it is only one of many possible fictional conversations. It would hardly be practical for me to post all such conversations. The reason I posted this particular one is because I believe that this sums up the most commonly held point of view regarding the original purpose of karate kata.

Secondly, I have not mucked anything up. All I have done is drawn attention to the possibility that for some sensei traditional karate is founded on a belief that is not carefully stated as such to beginners. If this mucks things up for you then I apologize. Furthermore I apologize to anyone else who feels that this mucks things up.

Thirdly, I donít see what is wrong with me putting my interests and website in my signature. Other people do it, including the one of the moderators of this forum, so why canít I?
Martin Clewett - Ryoute - Double Hand Grappling, Grip Grappling and Double Circle Grappling

#233246 - 02/28/06 03:07 PM Re: Karate master and student conversation... [Re: founderofryoute1]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5844
Loc: USA

Actaully no, what you have done is post a one-sided, quite litteral "straw man" to "support" your viewpoint.

That its utter fallicious counts as "mucking things up."

If you don't know why, you should look up the term "straw-man" and compare and contrast with your post.

To illustrate, here's another "fictional conversatuion"

Master--"Have you cheacked out the "double handed grappling" site yet?"

Student--"Yes, weird looking guys doing totally inpractical things, vs staged, "scripted" attacks."

Master- "So you don't think they know what they are doing?"

Student- "How could they? Heck, I'm older than these guys, been around the block more, had more experience, etc"

Master- "What do you mean?"

Student-"Well I have been in fights before and the first thing someone would do is grab you by all that long scraggly hair and then beat the snot out of you."

Master--"good point"

Now is that an ACCURATE "fictional conversation" of you and your website??

Or did I just build my own one sided, "straw man" and paint your name on it???

So if YOUR "fictional conversation" is "OK" then so is MINE.

Get it???????

Its set to be "contaversial" so as to get folks to click the link back to your own website--thus generating "hits" and "traffic" and NOW presumably to generate sales of your book.

As to your other posit--is the "mod" in question selling anything?
And if so, do you think that maybe since he has been around quite a while, earned some cred--with you being a total "newbie" to the site with no cred--you might just be seen as a bit "different????"

As such this should count as advertising and I would like a few pounds kicked my way for my help.

I take PayPal.

Edited by cxt (02/28/06 03:08 PM)
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

#233247 - 02/28/06 06:51 PM Re: Karate master and student conversation... [Re: cxt]
McSensei Offline

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 1069
Loc: Kent, England
It was an interesting little thread there for a while regardless of the alleged ulterior motives of the poster.
Gone west now though!

Edited by McSensei (02/28/06 09:22 PM)

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