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#233221 - 02/24/06 03:07 PM Re: Karate master and student conversation... [Re: Galen]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
no...you are the one who has fallen. You've 'pegged' me in exactly the opposite direction. how long have you been here? It would be helpful if people knew what Art(s) you study for how long, etc. there are introduction threads in each Art's respective forum I believe.

you think I'm 'a mythical thinker', 'illogical', 'cant hold an argument so revert to cryptic language', etc.

...or it could be that you don't even have a clue.

your snide attitude almost makes me want to just ignore you. but, my name has green on it, so I'll go the extra mile. First, 'Zen task' is a made-up term...the wink along with it was to the people reading who had a clue what I was referring to. which was the 'multitasking' thread in the Zen room.

in reguard to kata...I've talked about the same exact subject in other threads and didn't feel like having to do it all over again. my laziness, my bad...or you could try exploring the search function. there have been such things discussed before.

I'll summarize my position for you though: the only sure and scientific way is a fight to the death...but even then we'd need several fights in order to get a solid statistical average to sumize anything. since people can't fight and reset like video games, I guess it comes down to a matter of faith in your instructor. then your instructor having faith in you to teach you how to interpret kata, then faith in yourself in being able to execute these principles in a real life or death situation.

It's faith. even I know that and I'm a secular humanist, software engineer with a minor in mathematics.

nice meeting you. think less and feel more. or...don't. doesn't affect my study if you see the wisdom in kata practice or not.

[edit]
also, please fill out your profile when you have time.
I just noticed you've been on the forums for a while, so I edited my post accordingly. at first I assumed you were a noob here since just now you are starting to introduce yourself. I think in some of your past posts, I've mistaken you for 'Gavin' since the usernames are so similar in a glance.

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#233222 - 02/24/06 07:28 PM Re: Karate master and student conversation... [Re: Galen]
McSensei Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 1068
Loc: Kent, England
My turn.

"McSensei


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Heck, I just learn kata to help me learn how to fight.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Can you please explain, in very clear and obvious terms, how you believe practicing kata makes you a better fighter? More than that, how does practicing kata make you a better fighter than shadow boxing would, or standing in a corner practicing individual technique, alone and in combination? Further, why not just fight?? If the goal is to be a better fighter (as you statements seems to infer), then what better way to get good at fighting than by fighting?"


You want it explained as if you were a beginner. OoooooooooK

*McSensei sighs at yet another white belts naive question*

"Well, you see it's like this....
Kata makes me a better fighter by firstly teaching me a set of techniques that I could use in a self defence situation. Then it goes on to teach me an even more basic set of principles that would give me a big advantage over an untrained assailant in said situation.
There are other ways I could train to gain the same knowledge but kata gives me the whole deal, as far as solo training goes, in one easy to use package. Something I can take away and practice away from my instructor, so I don't have to remember this combination and that drill.

You see, kata is always being likened to a tool. Well, I prefer to see it as a vehicle. As martial artists we all have roughly the same destination, but how we get there- that's the thing. You may travel by car, while I travel by plane. Someone else may prefer say, helicopters. They all get us where we were going, but in different ways. No way is the best way, just different ways. That is what is so rich about the martial arts."

*Confuzzled white belt then asks...
"..but McSensei, why not just get in loads of fights?"

*A wry smile...*

"You could choose that vehicle if you wanted to, but it usually ends up with a detour at Her Majestys Pleasure.
That's not big and it certainly ain't clever."


So Mitch, (if you don't mind me calling you that, I feel we should be on first name terms by now.....you can call me...
..Mc ) does that do it for ya?
_________________________
http://www.semtexgym.co.uk/

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#233223 - 02/24/06 10:54 PM Re: Karate master and student conversation... [Re: McSensei]
bobmax Offline
Member

Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 26
Loc: toronto,ontario,canada
Quote:

Heck, I just learn kata to help me learn how to fight.




ok, so when fighting you leave your fist out after a punch until your next movement begins? You turn left after a left lunge punch because you're trained to do so in movement #5 in taikyoku shodan? C'mon.

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#233224 - 02/24/06 11:15 PM Re: Karate master and student conversation... [Re: BrianS]
bobmax Offline
Member

Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 26
Loc: toronto,ontario,canada
Quote:

I'll give it a shot Galen.

To the beginner kata offers balance,coordination,and focus. Once you understand the principles behind the movements you have the self defense of where to hit,how to hit,angle and direction of strikes.
Each move will show you a perfect defense to a specific attack,you can expand from there.
As I am discovering after several years of kata practice there is always something new to be learned from them.
I often see something new in them when watching others,I think to myself,"Hey! that looks just like this in that kata!" I get excited from it still.




I like your response. And it touches on what I think the true (if only) purpose of kata is: kata is movement incorporating karate techniques. And nothing more. It is not MEANT to be practical, and it is not practical. If you learn how to fight by practising kata you will fail. If, however, you are the undisputed no-holds-barred fighting champion of the world and you have never applied yourself to the mastery of a single kata for the better part of a year, you're simply missing out on life.

This is kata's only justification: it is what it is. It is like abstract art, it doesn't represent, it is pure aesthetics. Everyone misses this point. Kata without practical application is what the masters intended, and what we might see again; beautiful movement where beauty is described in terms like 'solid', 'precise', 'grounded', 'focussed' and 'flowing'.

This is outside the scope of ufc fights and televised tournament-style events.

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#233225 - 02/24/06 11:50 PM Re: Karate master and student conversation... [Re: bobmax]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
On the other hand, two of the 4 students of mine that have been assaulted have used techniques directly from katas.The other two used a straight punch, and a side kick. Each one against significantly larger opponants. So if they were created soley for asthetic purposes the old guys must have considered dropping or subduing a a$$hole in a Walmart parking lot a thing of beauty.

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#233226 - 02/25/06 12:15 AM Re: Karate master and student conversation... [Re: oldman]
bobmax Offline
Member

Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 26
Loc: toronto,ontario,canada
Quote:

On the other hand, two of the 4 students of mine that have been assaulted have used techniques directly from katas.The other two used a straight punch, and a side kick. Each one against significantly larger opponants. So if they were created soley for asthetic purposes the old guys must have considered dropping or subduing a a$$hole in a Walmart parking lot a thing of beauty.




ok this is perfect it encapsulates in one post the whole kata-as-practical argument.

you wrote: "two of the 4 students of mine that have been assaulted have used techniques directly from katas.The other two used a straight punch, and a side kick."

(first, and paranthetically, are there no straight punches or side kicks in any of your style's kata?) And second, OF COURSE many basic techniques are incorporated into kata, and of course some will work. That is not the point of this discussion. If kata were simply a physical recitation of a style's techniques, then every kata would begin with a natural stance, transition into a block and strike, go back to the natural stance, into a different block and counter, etc. (not a bad idea in my opinion). To say I used a reverse punch in a physical encounter, and then to credit my kata training for its effectiveness (how many reverse punches are there in your style's kata, after all) is vacuous. Kata is about transitions, balance, rhythm, symmetry and concentration, values almost irrelevant in a real encounter.

Consider this: if I come at you right now any way I want, will you respond by rote from a kata?

The answer is 'no'.

And that's ok. Kata is still a valuable thing. It's ok...

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#233227 - 02/25/06 12:33 AM Re: Karate master and student conversation... [Re: Ed_Morris]
bobmax Offline
Member

Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 26
Loc: toronto,ontario,canada
Quote:

Quote:

I donít feel that kata has anything to do with practical application of technique.



When you do feel that, we can talk.




Man, that's arrogant.

I think you should know something: I happen to be acquainted with Galen (we compete on the same tournament circuit) and I'll tell you this; in the thirty years I've been studying and teaching I haven't seen a more consistent winner in the kata competitive circuit than this man. He doesn't take his posts lightly, and you would be well advised not to dismiss his views on kata as the ramblings of a ufc wannabe...

edited to fix quote


Edited by MattJ (02/25/06 08:54 AM)

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#233228 - 02/25/06 03:37 AM Re: Karate master and student conversation... [Re: bobmax]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Quote:

Kata is about transitions, balance, rhythm, symmetry and concentration, values almost irrelevant in a real encounter.

Consider this: if I come at you right now any way I want, will you respond by rote from a kata?

The answer is 'no'




What are the ways that you can 'come' at oldman except a punch, a kick, a grap? Oldman (or any of his students) will certainly not respond "by rote" from a particular kata, but with his "transitions, balance, rhythm, symmetry and concentration" (all of which according to you are almost irrelevant in a real encounter) he will have an appropriate technique from a kata to defend himself against you, "right now" if necessary
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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#233229 - 02/25/06 08:18 AM Re: Karate master and student conversation... [Re: bobmax]
McSensei Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 1068
Loc: Kent, England
"This is kata's only justification: it is what it is. It is like abstract art, it doesn't represent, it is pure aesthetics. Everyone misses this point. Kata without practical application is what the masters intended, and what we might see again; beautiful movement where beauty is described in terms like 'solid', 'precise', 'grounded', 'focussed' and 'flowing'."

It is this attitude to kata that has seen the mma crowd ridicule karate.
If this is what you genuinely believe then you are completely missing the point and no amount of explanation is going to help. It's quite sad but you are really missing out on something here.
All I will say is get yourself a copy of Iain Abernethys book "Bunkai Jutsu," read it and then come back with the idea of kata as purely aesthetic.
_________________________
http://www.semtexgym.co.uk/

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#233230 - 02/25/06 08:29 AM Re: Karate master and student conversation... [Re: bobmax]
McSensei Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 1068
Loc: Kent, England
"ok, so when fighting you leave your fist out after a punch until your next movement begins? You turn left after a left lunge punch because you're trained to do so in movement #5 in taikyoku shodan? C'mon."

The above statement shows up your unparalelled ignorance in this subject.
If all you think Taigyoku shodan is is a collection of blocks and punches then you really should find yourself an instructor that knows a little more about the art of karate and is not still teaching this kind of ignorant rubbish.

I bet you still think blocks are...blocks.

BBBWWAAAAHHHAAAHHAAAAA
_________________________
http://www.semtexgym.co.uk/

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