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#232653 - 02/23/06 04:00 PM Re: Bunkai sparring? [Re: Alejandro]
Joss Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 567
Alejandro, wonderful insight.

The possibility that old style training and old kata were developed to prevail against attacks by other trained warriors is so basic I am ashamed that I have never considered the concept.

I train, here and now, to deal primarily with an untrained attack. That's probably 99% of the general population and I just don't really see the odds of my being attacked by another martial artist. Maybe I'm just a romantic, but that's how I see it.

Back "then" though, warrior was a social class and warriors fought other warriors. Warriors probably didn't train hard for being attacked by a peasant or merchant or artisan.

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#232654 - 02/23/06 04:28 PM Re: Bunkai sparring? [Re: Alejandro]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
This is exactly why kata bunkai will not work in modern freestyle, it isnt meant to.

It is common knowledge that 'sparring' wasnt popular until around mid 1900, forgive my dates, however i seem to remember that the Goju Kai school developed this aspect in relation to the development of judo and kendo, which is all fine.

The older traditions stuck with kata and fixed kumite, to teach principles. those principles were then drilled against likely assaults, this is how I train these days and it puts a whole new outlook on kata bunkai, im sure recently we discussed this stuff in another thread.

Nicely put Alejandro.

Now im not going to be so bold and say that people who soley train for tournament (any format free sparring) cant defend themselves, because of course they can, however the rules can cause alot of problems - however if they are in good condition then they have good skills to cope with the reality of attacks. personally I favour the older methods, sparring is just full of ego............mainly mine
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#232655 - 02/23/06 04:41 PM Re: Bunkai sparring? [Re: shoshinkan]
Joss Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 567
I tend to agree that, at least, sport folks have an uphill battle against the thrust of their training.

We are a purely self defense - jutsu school. It is really taking some reprogramming for some of us to leave behind the older sense of "scoring points", and adopting the sense of first breaking up uke's attack, then beating him down and dropping him without losing the momentum we have just gained.

This in simple terms is ending the old way of "IPPON" - touchdown on a single stroke, and stopping, and finding the new way of as many strokes as it takes.

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#232656 - 02/23/06 05:05 PM Re: Bunkai sparring? [Re: shoshinkan]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
A few things. First there were kumite in the old days, however, they would be more like wrestling matches with less atemi so not to cause as many injuries as they would have incured if they had used atemi. These matches did not stop when you hit the ground, they did use submissions and immobilizations so strikes could be applied after the opponent was pinned to the ground.

Second what principles of shorin ryu are not present in Naihanchi. Naihanchi contains all principles of shorin ryu only hidden or not fully expanded. Kusanku is the expansion of the princples of shorin ryu, thus the ultimate kata of shorin ryu. Why do you think Motobu meant when he said that Naihanchi is the only kata you need?

And as far as karate's groundfighting it is definitely different from say bjj/gjj, but it is based upon okinwan karate's principles. It was said if you get put on the ground then get up. Well that is the basis, but it goes into how to get up using strikes, leg locks, and leg positioning. How to reverse your position. And finally how to finish your opponent quickly on the ground so they don't get up with you. Think about it bjj came from old school judo, which came from jjj, which was originally an art of the samurai based on sword handling techniques. The satsuma jigen-ryu greatly influenced the indigenous okinawan fighting methods to create the udundi or palace hand which is contained on some styles of karate. These groundfighting techniques are contained in karate, but the question is of intent and the level to which the practioner focuses on them and develops them. However, the techniques and strategies are present.

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#232657 - 02/23/06 07:58 PM Re: Bunkai sparring? [Re: medulanet]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Regarding the old style matches that were grappling based, my understanding is that this is tegumi and whilst it is supportive of karate, its not karate as passed on in kata.

Shorin Ryu principles not held within Naihanchi, ok mobility would be the obvious one for me, and one could argue that Motobu Sensei may have been talking about fundamentals, a bit like many goju people talk about sanchin,containing everything - it doesnt but its VERY important.

Regarding the getting up statement, hey it was said and has been said to me by several people, some trained or currently training in Okinawa, and the masters they train with also said this.

Regarding finishing your opponent on the ground this has always been demonstrated to me by remaining on your feet using Tuite technique or atemi to finish. However im sure some 'arrest' based systems would be happy to brace with ones weight but thats hardly grappling is it.


Yep the Satsuma Jigen-Ryu did of course influence the Okinawan Karate tradition (But the Chinese systems seem more significant), however my belief is that it did this primarily in the weapons arts, of course elements of old school jujutsu were also shared and blended into what karate become, however I just dont see, havent been shown, havent expierienced significant dedicated ground fighting srategy or technique with the authentic karate kata or drills that are practised by any style, yet! And certainly not by a couple of high grade Matsubayashi Sensei I talk to!

Medulanet, its ok for us to have different opinions and expierience on this stuff, but really ask yourself where is the evidence, if it can be found then i am happy to hold my hands up and say im wrong along with a significant number of very, very expierienced karate friends i know and have discussed this with.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#232658 - 02/23/06 08:29 PM Re: Bunkai sparring? [Re: shoshinkan]
Alejandro Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/02/02
Posts: 940
Loc: Las Cruces, NM USA
Awesome posts all.

I think that it is only natural that the overall strategy of civil arts would include ground fighting and that old style karate included them (thus chuan fa must have as well). The bottom line is that we don't know EXACTLY what training was like in 19th century and before, and we don't know EXACTLY what changed during the turn of the 20th. Maybe ground tactics were more obvious in kata back then, maybe not. However, if one looks at okinawan karate as an overall self-preservation paradigm based on effectively responding to physical assault, then it MUST contain ground fighting, right? My take is that there must be a base knowledge of ground tactics, then specific techniques can be learned. In the kata context, I think there are principles that can be applied on the ground, but also techniques in which a ground technique or submission could follow. For example, I teach a defense against a tackle in my Ryu's version of Wansu. This technique could easily flow in to a full front guillotine submission on the ground. Another example is in an application of gedan uke or a similar techniqu, in which an arm bar can flow in to a ground submission in which you rest your weight (side/back) on your opponents shoulder and bridge up (wish I knew a name for it).

So, some ground tactics must be inherantly understood; perhaps this is where oral tradition comes in (principles of tegumi perhaps), or in other cases reverse engineering and cross training revealed such apps. In my Ryu, ground tactics are taught individually, then potential application situations are shown from kata. As an aside, I do feel that Naihanchi contains wonderful principles of body mechanics that can be applied to submission techniques; just think outside the "Naihanchi dachi", which is for physical development, and realize potential shifts in stance in relation to your opponent, and you may see submissions. Its all about thinking outside the box, IMO. Again I reiterate, it is the principles learned from kata that transcend.
_________________________
In Budo, -Al

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#232659 - 02/24/06 02:06 AM Re: Bunkai sparring? [Re: shoshinkan]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Naihanchi not mobile? Performed at combat speed it is. Think of the step over as a knee strike to the legs and the next step used for tai sabaki to get the angle. Or it can be a leg lock on the ground or standing trip to disrupt your opponent's balance. Naihanchi has great mobility. Once you learn the sequence and some basic bunkai you must get "inside" the kata and really start exploring its potential. Naihanchi's speed and mobility is not from pure physical attributes, but from the timing gained when learning to apply its techniques, although the movements can be applied with great physical mobility. It follows basic shorin ryu principles. When you move you hit'em, when you hit'em you hurt'em. In naihanchi each movement contains atemi or atemi combined with tuite, and there are leg techniques galore. If you use the naihanchi foot work without applying the leg techniques it can appear slower than the other kata, but when you understand it it is not at all slow.

As far as high ranking Matsubayashi guys not knowing this that is not surprising. I personally have seen very few high ranking Matsubayashi guys who know advanced execution and application of the techniques and principles of this style. There are a few old school guys like James Wax or Frank Grant and a few of their students who stayed in Okinawa and trained long enough to develop a firm advanced understanding of Matsubayashi. Or Okinawans who are still alive like Taba, Tamaki, Maeda, Makishi, and Ota who are the real deal. Nagamine's son used to be, but that is another story I will not discuss here. My teacher in Matsubayashi has an unique and extremely advanced understanding of Matsubayashi that most do not. Just out of curiosity, what Matsubayashi guys do you know? I personally have seen too many 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th Dans that just make you wonder, aren't promotions based on skill anymore?

Ultimately the proof is can you make it work, can you teach others to make it work, and does it follow the principles of your style. Obviously words on the net don't prove any of these things. But if I can show you how it works would you believe me? Or would my students have to show you? Or would you have to hear it from an old Okinawan guy?

Some people see a hook punch in western boxing as only a punch, and some see the elbow. Those who don't see the elbow won't mind because they will be K.O.ed with it before they even know they know they were hit. Some will see the elbow too late and will see it as it K.O.'s them. And a few will see it, avoid it, and prevail against it.

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#232660 - 02/24/06 05:13 AM Re: Bunkai sparring? [Re: medulanet]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
LOL, this is getting interesting Medulanet!

Ok, Naihanchi not being mobile was a little harsh, of course it has mobility, I practise principle application from the kata basically as you describe (the cross step is nearly always used to 'pass' an attack, or 'lead' an opponent across the centre line)

However it teaches us to fight side on to our attacker, but to me its base message is once we have evaded/grabed/struck to then use the mechanics of the stance to apply our atemi/tuite as a standing submission (although I dont use naihanchi dachi, but feet natural in application), often with the naihanchi kick to take down - now of course all of those techniques/principles could be transfered to some ground grappling, but was this the intent, I dont see it.

As for Naihanchi containing everything Shorin Ryu has to offer, no I just dont buy it, look at the other kata and you will see plenty of techniques/strategys that dont appear in the Naihanchi and each of these is teaching us a basic principle of combat, prime example being the double front kick in chinto/kushanku - different way of moving for a different reason, not in Naihanchi? Forward Step Punch in any kata, again totally different mechanics to those taught in Naihanchi. Motobu Sensei was rather keen on Passai as well, proberly for the ground covering strategy held within it and DIFFERENT principles/technique learnt in Naiahnchi.

Im not entering Sensei name dropping, however i do take your point regarding certain high level instructors, fortunatly im confident that I have acess to some extremly authentic karateka.

Now we all reengineer, its part of a martial artist development, but im very much into looking at the core elements of each kata as significant lessons, and whilst i see Naihanchi as a work of genius, delivering many, many important lessons to Shorin Ryu it isnt the whole Shorin Ryu system, the other kata have significant value from a lessons learnt perspective. And of course im only where im at, it all could change tommorow!


The story goes that Naihanchi should have ended up in the Naha Camp of kata anyhow........................

_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#232661 - 02/24/06 05:54 AM Re: Bunkai sparring? [Re: shoshinkan]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
apologies to Brian, we seem to have strayed a little.........
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#232662 - 02/24/06 06:14 AM Re: Bunkai sparring? [Re: shoshinkan]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
That's what threads do and as long as it is realtive to the forum I certainly don't mind. I'm enjoying the conversation. Just don't start swapping casserole recipe's.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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