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#232643 - 02/22/06 08:28 AM Re: Bunkai sparring? [Re: Ed_Morris]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
I have to agree that i dont see much ground fighting technique, principle or tactics within karate, re naihanchi...........

well i thought it had alot to do with lateral movement and rooting, solid base, flexible upper body, combination of atemi and tuite - stand up.

Ok we can draw movement comparisons between stand up and groundwork but thats grasping at straws to defend karates significantly weak ground game, which is as it should - its a stand up art.

Now if you look at the Tegumi practise of young okinawans you might find a 'base' ground game that is important to support karate practise as an all round art, but that aint taught in kata primarily.
_________________________
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#232644 - 02/22/06 09:33 AM Re: Bunkai sparring? [Re: BrianS]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
thats what I meant by a definite starting and ending point. sparring really doesn't have an 'end' unless you do some sort of submission technique (throwing, locking, etc) something that won't send the sparring partner to the hospital. If your goal is submission only training, then sure, a subset of kata principals could work fine.
How many people when sparring, reset after a knife hand to the throat simulated strike? It might have ended a real confrontation or gave enough time to followup, but in sparring people just keep going as if the throat strike was nothing, since they (luckily) didn't feel a thing.

Most 'non-sport' sparring I've seen only ends and is reset when someone is brought to the ground with a trip or throw. fun, but is that realistic? or just another type of sport?
-----------------
re: sparring bunkai
http://img457.imageshack.us/img457/1622/beat64my.jpg
this looks like it could be a principle from naihanchi (but it can't be because you are a Goju guy and not a royal guard. lol sorry).

first sequence to saifa. (at closer range you can use an elbow instead of a RH...the kata is an elbow but the principle is the same)

nice work, watch that shoulder.


good discussion...makes me think if I'm missing yet another aspect of kata. one thing at a time though...I'm still trying to get a half-decent reverse punch.

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#232645 - 02/22/06 11:31 AM Re: Bunkai sparring? [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
What made Motobu strong? Lifting weights and practicing Naihanchi kata. This is an important principle for developing your body in the beginning and intermediate phase of shorin ryu. In shorin if you want to get strong you lift weights and practice naihanchi which is a tanrenho exercise. Naihanchi contains all of the principles of shorin ryu karate. It is all about inside fighting which contains locks and strikes. These strikes can be done standing and from the ground. Naihanchi also has multiple let techniques which can be applied standing and from the ground. I could probably find a move from BJJ or boxing that looks like baking a cake when done solo as well, but that does not mean its not used for fighting. Much of the old training ways are lost and too many people don't understand karate. Just because most people don't do it does not mean it does not exist. Once again I think most people don't understand the genius of the okinawan people's fighting methods. Are you actually telling me that you have never seen a person whip their leg up to trap someone in a shoulder lock just like you do in Naihanchi? It may look like baking a cake to you, but I see it differently. Again, only modern arts created/modified in the 1900's are as specific as being only one thing and not the other. Boxing was once a complete art with throwing techniques etc and now it is only striking. Karate was a complete art with striking as its primary tool, but to supplement the striking it contained many grappling aspects. Why else would motobu speak of using karate techniques to grapple with your opponent? Ultimately your limitations on karate won't effect my research, study, and practice. There was a time when many westerners, japanese, and modernized okinawans thought karate was only a long range kicking and punching art with zero grappling. I am just wondering how long until more of the truth will come out.

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#232646 - 02/22/06 11:48 AM Re: Bunkai sparring? [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Quote:

It may look like baking a cake to you, but I see it differently.


ouch. ...guess I deserved that one though.

your points are well taken... my Karate must be sub-standard when compared to people with access to Royalty and full-time study. I used to think similarly about Harvard U. too...after I was accepted to Grad school I dropped out after one semester. wasn't my thing, didn't fit in and I just couldn't hang. not everyone is cut out to be a H grad....not everyone is cut out to be a Royal guard either.

If everyone knew and were willing to pay the price to get there, then it would no longer be special.

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#232647 - 02/22/06 09:51 PM Re: Bunkai sparring? [Re: Ed_Morris]
hedkikr Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/28/05
Posts: 2827
Loc: Southern California, USA
Good stuff...but Naihanchi is groundfighting?



The Abernathy article reflects many of my own beliefs except one. The citiz4ens were disarmed by the King before the Japanese ever invaded. I think it's accepted that the guards were well-trained in "Ti" so to call it a civilian art is not entirely true.

The skills learned in kata that I teach are essentially, Tai Sabaki, Sen-no-sen, Iri-kumi & proper body mechanics.

owari

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#232648 - 02/22/06 11:11 PM Re: Bunkai sparring? [Re: Ed_Morris]
chickenchaser Offline
Member

Registered: 10/29/05
Posts: 204
Loc: Auburn,New York,U.S.A.
Quote:

so what kata is this from I wonder?
<img src="http://www.ianabernethy.com/images/Iain_Abernethy_3.jpg" />
just being a wise-guy.

looks alot like pinan godan to me!!(kobayashi shorin-ryu)



_________________________
"The early bird gets the worm, but the bird in a hurry only gets half of one." --- Sensei Corey

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#232649 - 02/23/06 06:21 AM Re: Bunkai sparring? [Re: medulanet]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Nice post Medulanet,

ok, just my thoughts -

what made motobu strong - a natural body strength as a starting point developed by long term hojo undo, and of course naihanchi practise.

I agree that physical development is an important begining to shorin ryu, very Tiger/Crane stylee!!!

Naihanchi contains all of the principles of shorin ryu karate - this im going to have to disagree on, however it is certainly an important foundation kata.

Much of the old training ways are lost and too many people dont understand karate - now you know im in total agreeance with this, and make it my business to work back to find awnsers that simply arnt easily avalaible.

Why else would motobu speak of using karate techniques to grapple with your opponent Im convinced that this reference is to stand up, show me some reference material of older masters doing groundwork then I will of course open up on this one, but EVERY significant karateka I have discussed this with does not think karate has a significant application to groundwork, the awnser is always the same - stay on your feet, if you go down get up quick.....

I am just wondering how long until more of the truth willcome out - again I totally agree and luckily im happy to change my views as I see, train and understand solid evidence fromt he past, but until then I only have what i have!




Edited by shoshinkan (02/23/06 06:23 AM)
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#232650 - 02/23/06 01:49 PM Re: Bunkai sparring? [Re: shoshinkan]
Alejandro Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/02/02
Posts: 940
Loc: Las Cruces, NM USA
Great discussion, it is very healthy to evaluate one's own training, and I've enjoyed reading this thread.

A couple more cents:

Several posts ago a subtopic was kata tachniques and principles as applied, and countering them. I feel that what is extracted during bunkai and applied in oyo are principles, not memorized sets of technique. Yes, techniques are applied in two-man drills in a somewhat arranged fashion, but it is the principles that transcend. Many self-preservation techniques are learned, applied and memorized, but learning dozens of applications from all the ryu-ha's kata to all sorts of attacks will not do one any good. I think that it is the fundamental body principles and physical skills that come from kata and other aspects of training are what really "win a fight," so to say.
So, kaeshu (countering) "techniques" are in the kata, but you don't "bunkai them up," as to say: "Here, when your left arm is doing this and your legs this, you are countering this kata technique." Additionally, it is (usually) commonly accepted knowledge today that the self-preservation paradigm that civil defense systems such as toudi and chuan fa have are/were based around responding to natural physical attacks (HAPV as McCarthy, Hanshi coined), not trained attacks.

It never fails to amaze me how many unkowns there are in Okinawan Karate history and development; a long way to go yet in making more discoveries. I know that karate has changed since it's early development, in nature, goals, etc. Change has naturally ocurred even in the most authentic of ryu. I don't see this as a bad thing; cultural preservation is of the utmost importance in karate, but this is the 21st century, and it is only natural that aspects of karate have and will change. Beyond self defense, I have a firm belief in the holistic and non-physical aims of karate, and feel that the "old masters" did too. If you disagree, then what do you make of Sokon Matsumura's "Busho Ikko", circa 1882, in which he explains martial virtues and philosophy; he was a true koryu bushi.

I hope I didn't beat this thread in to the ground or stray too much; just some thoughts from your friendly neighborhood budoka.
_________________________
In Budo, -Al

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#232651 - 02/23/06 03:07 PM Re: Bunkai sparring? [Re: Alejandro]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
excellent post.

I agree with all of it, but in particular this (and since it's more on topic):

Quote:

Additionally, it is (usually) commonly accepted knowledge today that the self-preservation paradigm that civil defense systems such as toudi and chuan fa have are/were based around responding to natural physical attacks (HAPV as McCarthy, Hanshi coined), not trained attacks.




which would mean the kata (at least in Goju) contains principals best suited for dealing with such civil attacks.

and if thats true, then kata principals aren't really geered for sparring-like training (since it's not applied against an equally skilled attack).
More like one or two exchanges and then reset. of course there is overlap in 'sparring', but the intent is different. Thats what I'm striving for anyway...if someone wants to preserve how they used to protect castles, all power to them....both emphasis' are 'true' Karate. both are functional for their respective tasks.

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#232652 - 02/23/06 03:21 PM Re: Bunkai sparring? [Re: Ed_Morris]
Alejandro Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/02/02
Posts: 940
Loc: Las Cruces, NM USA
You nailed it, ed. Great post!

The type of sparring drills done today were likely never even thought of in the "old days." Whether one likes it or not, the competitive revolution of karate in post WWII karate has had a lasting impact. This isn't to say that various types of kumite have no value, it is simply important to understand the difference and respective goals. Old style "kumite" were reinactments of self-preservation techniques: two-man drills. Demostrating bunkai that responds to skilled attacks should be a long dead practice, it totally defies the original intent.
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In Budo, -Al

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