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#232633 - 02/21/06 11:39 PM Re: Bunkai sparring? [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
I don't know any Goju(Naha) kata, but I do know shorin and more specifically Matsubayashi. Describe any technique and I can show you a "response" from shorin kata. The kata of Matsubayashi were intended for the purpose of passing on the okinawan tradition of uchinandi intact. This is not only a self defense art, but the art of the royal bodyguards of the okinawan king and his court. They deal with all methods of attack and defense. Why would someone perpetuate a fighting art not meant to beat a skilled fighter? Obviously Motobu was able to use it so some effect when he fought that foreign boxer. I have even heard that Funakoshi was able to throw Kodokan fifth dans with his karate. Why else would the Kodokan rank an outsider as fifth dan if he had no skills? And Funakoshi was not in the top in terms of skill of the okinawan karate men of his time.

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#232634 - 02/21/06 11:46 PM Re: Bunkai sparring? [Re: medulanet]
BrianS Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
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Loc: Northwest Arkansas
This is interesting.
Quote:

Of course, most dojos include "kumite" on their curriculum, but the most commonly practised form of kumite is based upon the rules of modern-day competition, not the principles of the kata. You must understand that the sparring of today is not the same sparring that was practised in the past. In his 1926 book, "Ryukyu Karate Kempo" Choki Motobu (who was one of Okinawa's most feared fighters) wrote, "Kumite is an actual fight using many basic styles of kata to grapple with the opponent" (Masters Publications 1995).






http://www.ianabernethy.com/articles/article_8.asp

Your thoughts?
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#232635 - 02/22/06 12:25 AM Re: Bunkai sparring? [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
sorry, I didn't see page 2 and added to my last post.

was Nagamine a royal bodyguard? thought he was a policeman. did the royal guard practice the 18 kata curriculum of Matsubayashi? why not? why was that changed? what else was changed by Nagamine, Funakoshi, et al? what experience in Nagamine's policeman career did he learn on the job and adapt however so slightly or major, the kata to? and Naha-Te doesn't exactly come from a royal background. Naha-te pretty much survives mainly thru Higashionna influence. Without full access to the inherited fighting systems of royalty, he when back to the source...China. when he came back what did he make? a better way to protect a castle door or a civilian defence system?

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#232636 - 02/22/06 12:56 AM Re: Bunkai sparring? [Re: BrianS]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
so what kata is this from I wonder?

just being a wise-guy.

I don't really see the distinction in that article between non-prearrainged bunkai and Kata Based Sparring.

and grappling in kata? yes, standup grappling. but I've never seen nor have I been shown a correlation between ground fighting and kata principles. I'm waiting for someone to write an article or book on that. seems to be still a secret.

kumite has a definite beginning and end. an initiator and finisher. If it's not doing that when you are doing kumite to develop application, then it's not really kumite practice, its just a free for all at all ranges and the best thing for that would be to just take an MMA.

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#232637 - 02/22/06 01:19 AM Re: Bunkai sparring? [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
ok, I've got an easy one to start. in Matsubayashi, there is a basic yakusoku kumite that is taught from white-belt level. (take your pick from which kata this technique is from, doesn't matter) ...it's a simultaneous deflection and strike with the same arm. how would the opponent defend against this? or was it designed for someone who isn't expecting it?

It's a nice technique, the timing has to be good...but even when I'm expecting it, it's hard to counter-deflect.

then tell me which kata principle this counter-deflect comes from.

and then I won't press the issue further.

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#232638 - 02/22/06 01:24 AM Re: Bunkai sparring? [Re: Ed_Morris]
BrianS Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
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Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

but I've never seen nor have I been shown a correlation between ground fighting and kata principles. I'm waiting for someone to write an article or book on that. seems to be still a secret.






Here you go,wise guy. http://www.ianabernethy.com/articles/article_1.asp
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#232639 - 02/22/06 01:46 AM Re: Bunkai sparring? [Re: Ed_Morris]
CVV Offline
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Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
Regarding Goju-ryu.
I have a problem with the entire pre-arranged bunkai thing.
As far as I know, Miyagi sensei did not teach pre-arranged bunkai sets. He did have yakusoku kumite in where techniques from kata were explained and encouriged his students to research themselves and come up with own interpretations.
In regard to sparring, I do use specific techniques from kata. But the give and take is very relaxed and you kind of let your opponent execute his enchainment of technique (randori). When you go at it tougher (jyu kumite) there is no slack and you try to anticipate upon your opponents tactics. This makes it very hard to set up certain techniques unless he is unaware untill the last moment of your tactic.
A sweep at the correct timing will effortless throw an opponent, at the wrong timing it will only hurt the foot.
So when the going gets tougher, we revert more on striking and fighting from a distance and occasionally going in for a combination but never stay in close range zone without comfort of superiority. It's hard to set up close range tactics from a distance. I consider this one of the major problems in fighting.
When fighting for real, I 've been able to setup combinations derived from kata like e.g. the elbow lock and throw from shishoshin. They did not anticipate me stepping out of their line of engagement giving me the opportunity to close in from the side and using pushing and pulling motions in aticipation of their direction of moving. A more trained opponent will anticipate on that and will not give you this change. Kakie training learns your body to recognise the timing to unbalance your opponent on the right timing giving you the edge to setup your technique.
From that perspective, the untrained opponent will give you more instant oppertunities but karate was never about fighting untrained opponents. Karate was about ending conflict, trained or untrained and evolved from a brutal killing art over an art to protect yourselve in fist fights to a sport art. The killing art no longer exists in my opinion, I 've not yet encountered a sylabus where this was teached and named karate.
Most teaching today is sport art(full contact to point fighting), especially to youth. Older and more experienced practitioners research in the field of ending conflict and sometimes touch the area of killing art but usually just stick to fist fight protection.
The tendencie to add SD perspective with things like knives and sticks is something I've not yet experienced and is fairly new to me. I can not relate to that and the kata techniques I know.

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#232640 - 02/22/06 01:52 AM Re: Bunkai sparring? [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Actually pressing the issue is good because it lets us look critically at our styles and develop them further. But in the case of the deflection and simultaneous punch any form of tai sabaki will work to avoid/slip the punch. Actually Frank Grant once taught to strike to the body due to the ease at which our style enabled us to slip head punches. You can use a technique from Ananku where almost the same punch is thrown by the aggressor and fade back to avoid the counter attack while deflecting the punch only to trap the arm or grab the body/clothing and kick/knee your opponent and then throw him off to the side. There are many step out slips in kata that you can use such as that in Wankan. Or maybe in Fukyugata ni the circular block used at the end illustrates how the hand that punches can be used to deflect an incoming strike as you step out to evade an incoming strike and follow up with an attack or entry into a throwing/strangulation/takedown technique.

As far as karate on the ground use naihanchi. The leg positions mimic an open guard and you can find everything from armbars to triangle locks/chokes to how to strike from the ground. The kata contains both ways to defend and reverse your position when being mounted. It also has how to strike from the mounted position and contains everything from open hand strikes to elbows to hammer fists when striking the head so you won't break your hand on your opponent's head to body shots to open these strikes up. Now mind you all of this is secondary to the stand up clinch range fighting of naihanchi which is like fighting in a phone booth.

Oh, and by the way, Nagamine learned Naihanchi kata from the line of Uko Giko whose lineage is independent from Itosu. Nagamine leared these kata as well as wankan, wanshu, passai, and rohai from Iha Kodatsu who was a top student of Kosaku Matsumora who was a royal bodyguard. Nagamine dedicated his later life to preserving the kata of uchinandi and passing on the principles of okinawan karate through the classical kata unchanged. I was known that before Nagamine's book was published kata were sometimes performed in different ways from its current curriculum, however, this I believe was simply experimentation and development of principles from kata which constantly develop, but the principles of the lessons taught by his main teachers perpetuated by both Kosaku Matsumora and Sokon Matsumura were preserved the best Nagamine could. No he was not a bodyguard, but he has perserved the essence of their techinque. Especially the Gojushiho of Matsubayashi which is said to be an entire system of udundi or palace hand.

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#232641 - 02/22/06 07:57 AM Re: Bunkai sparring? [Re: BrianS]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Brian, sorry still don't see it, nor have I ever been taught groundfighting via kata. There are alot of things I agree with Iain Abernethy's articles about, but that isn't one of them. could be my narrow view, or it could be seeing what isn't there. I bet I could pick out movements in kata that look like I'm baking a cake...doesn't mean kata is good for cooking.
It's been debated on every forum. If kata has groundfighting (and not just down on one knee striking as in finishing or following strikes), then why don't groundfighting systems practice it? also, it's true many Okinawan karate guys were skilled groundfighters...was that from kata or from their rough-n-tumble culture growing up? It's like an American guy saying he can pitch a baseball well because of his Shorin ryu whiplike movement learned in kata. but yet, there are other guys throwing just as well that learned on the field without kata. It would kindof make you wonder what the kata pitcher was really pitching... his throwing technique, or the practice.

---------------------
I agree with what CVV wrote. except I think Miyagi did teach prearrainged sets for beginners. this isn't a bad thing...its a stepping stone for learning, not as a final method. if you do an image search you'll see lots of pictures with this apparent.
---------------------

medulanet - yes, of course some locks and chokes are transferrable to someone on the ground or in a wheelchair....doesn't mean kata is necessarily the best way for someone in those positions to learn how to fight at those ranges.

Okinawan karate is great guys, but once we start seeing things that aren't there, we become blind to the weaknesses.

Is it naihanchi practice or sheer strength that would make someone like Motobu virtually 'untappable' on the ground? don't mistake the practice for the Men.

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#232642 - 02/22/06 08:13 AM Re: Bunkai sparring? [Re: Ed_Morris]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Remember Sanchin? With his sanchin wrestling bunkai? lol

The answer I gave was not much,I'm realistic. There are times when I can pull off certain moves ,but I'm not going to smash someone's larnyx because it is in the kata. In sparring we square off,everyone knows what is coming and the guard is up and so is resistance. In bunkai you are defending against an unsuspecting attacker making a certain grab/strike/gesture etc...two different things in my opinion.
Anyone see any bunkai within the sparring in the pictures posted in the rolling stone thread?
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