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#231722 - 02/21/06 09:27 AM Re: Chambering the fist [Re: ButterflyPalm]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Maybe we have stumbles onto something...

Perhaps the real reason for chambering is so that while you opponent is standing wondering why you are chambering your fist you can hit him with a sneaky jumping, spinning kick.
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#231723 - 02/21/06 02:16 PM Re: Chambering the fist [Re: Fisherman]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Fisherman:

I have not had the ability to read all the responses to your question..... Perhaps there ARE reasons for specific height placement of a chambered hand in the identical manner there is/are for example a correct position for an arm in a blocking position and not 6" further out?

Perhaps one chambering position lets us figure out how to explore the muscles of the arms & shoulders used & explored by that particular height? eg How can I be powerful from here... now how about from here... what do I have to contract, let go from here...

If you chamber from the identical spot you can isolate things and figure them out. If you start haphazardly from any old position there are too many factors get involved... making it impossible to isolate and identify how to make the shoulder, arm, hand as powerful as it can be for our intended usage.

One of many theories,

J

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#231724 - 02/21/06 06:08 PM Re: Chambering the fist [Re: Fisherman]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Also, sparring is very different to self-defense...

Imagine someone was in your face and suddenly reaches out to shove you at the chest or grab your shoulder or lapel. If you reach out and grab his sleeve at the elbow or arm (assuming he is wearing a top with sleeves, otherwise, grab yourself a handful of skin), and pull him in straight towards you while stepping back as you extend your other arm forward.

Note what happens to the attacker as you draw him off balance. Now see where your pulling hand is positioned. Ask your partner to step away from you as you maintain the "posture".

Now what does the posture "look" like?

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#231725 - 02/21/06 09:49 PM Re: Chambering the fist [Re: trevek]
ButterflyPalm Offline
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Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Quote:

Maybe we have stumbles onto something...you can hit him with a sneaky jumping, spinning kick.




So in training you need to 'chamber' your foot? to get that momentive power? to jump and spin? so as not to stumble?

Just my point. To train the forward movement to give it power, you need to train the backward movement first.
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#231726 - 02/22/06 09:17 AM Re: Chambering the fist [Re: ButterflyPalm]
Fisherman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/16/03
Posts: 1656
Loc: Colorado, USA
Quote:

In other words, how does chambering your fist(s) (some actually chamber both fists at the same time) at the waist while in training translate into actual combat efficiency where there is no chambering at the waist whatsoever?




It is the essence of the motion that translates, not the actual motion in and of itself. The forms that these ideas come from train specific ranges of motion in the body that are used durring fighting.
The point I was trying to convey was that the motion trained by the form is what we use when fighting, not the actual sequence of the form itself. Fighting would be much easier if all we had to do was stick to a routine. From what I have found, fights are anything but routine.
I guess in the long run it is up to us as pratitioners to find the essence of the forms and movements that we train and implement them into to our technique and fighting skill. We need to see how and why things work (or dont work).

Quote:

Look at Wing Chun for e.g.; When they practice their forms, sometimes both fists are chambered at the rib-cage; but when they fight, the hands are held way out in front. And they pride themselves with their 'one-inch' power which requires NO chambering at all; because in a real fight, there is just no time to chamber, and of course you also give your intentions away.



I don't know all that much about WC theory, but I would say their training methods and fighting methods look different because they are different and are meant to be that way. In many cases in the MA's, training for power and strength is different than training for fighting. The mechanics used in training for power and strength will differ from those used in fighting. However the essence of the movement is still there.

Quote:

..why not train or formulate training methods / regimes that will actually conform to the way people usually fight; like the way boxers do?



There are training methods that are specificaly designed to train fighting skill. Boxers do other types of strength training besides what they use when fighting.

Thanks for the thoughtful replies! I have really enjoyed this topic thus far!!!
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#231727 - 02/22/06 09:04 PM Re: Chambering the fist [Re: monji112000]
pathfinder7195 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/11/05
Posts: 336
Loc: T.C Michigan, U.S
My whole point was, that when sparring the fist should not be chambered. People often place to much emphasis on trying to translate the forms into fighting principles when forms should be used to build the body.

Forms should be looked at as way to build the body and to prepare it for the training that is needed in martial arts. Forms should be looked at as a way to gain better health due to the exercises involved that help strengthen muscles, you gain agility, balance, good breathing and a whole host of other assets that benefit the body.

Looking at forms as a vehicle for fighting is such a limited point of view that it over shadows the real benefits from forms.

Kevin

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#231728 - 02/23/06 12:11 AM Re: Chambering the fist [Re: pathfinder7195]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Kevin,

How you are taught the forms will determine their value. There are much better things you can do for your health.
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#231729 - 02/23/06 10:26 AM Re: Chambering the fist [Re: pathfinder7195]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Kevin,

With everything in its time and place, I would suggest the purpose of forms to provide long life is to learn how to use them exactly as shown to eliminate an attack, hence preserving one's life.

Karate wasn't developed for sparring, sparring became a tool to teach a few specific values, nothing more. Karate wasn't developed for fighting, you can get hurt if you fight. Karate was developed to not fight by ending the attacker before it becomes a fight. That is the purpose one should be working for, IMO.

And in that context, the appropriate use of any technique, including the chambering motion, may be appropriately considered.

The question is not the value of kata, but whether the training program you study or practice, works towards that end.


Edited by Victor Smith (02/23/06 10:27 AM)
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#231730 - 02/23/06 12:31 PM Re: Chambering the fist [Re: BaguaMonk]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello BuagwaMonk:

Be careful ... the phrase Yin-Yang at best is vague and borders on becoming cliche/platitude under the best of circumstances. You spoke of being a training exercise I ask for what purpose, to what end?

Does the height of the chamber matter at all? What about the particular value of the palm upward vs. touching the body vs. ???? The value of the arm I don't think was ever in debate, the "question" was why the specific hand, wrist positions & differing heights of assorted arts chambers???
The question is not about the waist/power though, the question is specific to the hand & wrist.

Ummmngh, no offense intended I genuinely intend none... how hard is it to realize that I have two hands and will use them both??? Your/my hand is not hidden in the least... is it ? If "chambering" holds no inherent function/purpose of combat why bother creating the habit then?

J

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#231731 - 02/23/06 12:34 PM Re: Chambering the fist [Re: Neko456]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Neko456:

Does the height of the specific/particular chamber or the particular wrist position matter?

J

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