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#231712 - 02/18/06 03:44 PM Re: Chambering the fist [Re: Fisherman]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Perhaps try experimenting with the level and see where your power comes from. I once met a karateka who was puzzled that his style had a higher position for chambering (chest level, I think) than my TKD. Also, consider boxers and their reaction hand.

Let us know how the experiments go.

By the way, Victor, excellent article.


Edited by trevek (02/18/06 03:50 PM)
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#231713 - 02/18/06 07:52 PM Re: Chambering the fist [Re: trevek]
Mr_Heretik Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 1074
Loc: Bronx NY, USA
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punch_%28strike%29

"Chambered Punch: A strike commonly performed in karate, kung fu, and tae kwon do. It involves thrusting the attacking fist towards the target from the hip, while the opposite hand is pulled back quickly at the same time, acting as a counter-balance. During this movement the hip is rotated forward in a 'snapping' motion. It is considered to have more of a 'penetrating' rather than a 'jarring' effect."

Well there you go, makes sense to me.

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#231714 - 02/18/06 08:54 PM Re: Chambering the fist [Re: Fisherman]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
At the basic level its a body flow drill it also teaches that you don't have to draw back behind your shoulder to deliver with power. As you advance its taught as technique such as rear elbow as if punching someone in front and elbowing behind a person starting to bear hug (as an example). Or a arm wrap or arm lock against the body using the chest high chamber. As you advance in our system you do check hand strikes as it is with most fighting systems.

Its just the start of a basic concept that compounds to more advance applications. It keeps the technique compact and concise.


Edited by Neko456 (02/18/06 09:01 PM)
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#231715 - 02/19/06 09:08 AM Re: Chambering the fist [Re: Neko456]
Fisherman Offline
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Registered: 07/16/03
Posts: 1656
Loc: Colorado, USA
Quote:

Its just the start of a basic concept that compounds to more advance applications.



Great point!!! There are quite a few things like this within Bagua. I would consider them to be structural foundation in which technique can be built upon.
If you look at a movement in a 3 dimensional manner many applications and techniques can be pulled from it.
What can be done with my advancing hand?
What can be done with my chambering hand?
What can be done with both hands simultaneously?
These are all questions we can ask ourselves when we are training on our own. These questions allow ideas about application to arise. The next time you train with someone, take a few minutes to play with these ideas to see what works and what doesn't.
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#231716 - 02/20/06 06:39 AM Re: Chambering the fist [Re: Fisherman]
BaguaMonk Offline
Member

Registered: 12/18/04
Posts: 404
Loc: DALLAS TX BABY
It depends on form. In horse stance punch training it is used on many things. You use it to clearly differntiate yin and yang, one arm fully extended, other at waist. It is purely for training purposes in this case. The twisting of punch from upsidedown to straight creates corckscrew force, along with the stable rooting of legs, and full waist rotation whipping the punch out explosively. The fist going and twisting back can be linked to pulling and twisting someone's arm toward you as you punch.

In Shaolin forms, the hand is pulled back to waist because often times you use the waist and rooting to strike (sideways for example) and the hand goes back. One purpose of this is to "hide the back hand" (other side facing enemy). There you got a fully chambered and loaded fist ready to attack without being seen (remember shaolin punching is about speed-acceleration, and explosively using waist).It is more of a principle, in a fight the arm might be hidden near your chest, or behind your other arm for example.

By pulling with the arm (back to waist) and simultaenously punching with the other hand with full waist force, it helps train your waist for power, because you are symmetrically pulling with one, and punching with other.

In fighting, it is useless, don't mix habit of practice with fighting. That is why you should spar frequently so that you don't make that mistake.
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#231717 - 02/20/06 08:43 AM Re: Chambering the fist [Re: Mr_Heretik]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Quote:

It is considered to have more of a 'penetrating' rather than a 'jarring' effect."

Well there you go, makes sense to me.




Then perhaps you can explain to us what 'penetrating' / 'jarring' effect means?

My view on the subject is, perhaps with developmental hindsight, one can see / impute all sorts of mechanistic advantages to chambering the fist at the waist (though there are systems where it is at chest level, e.g. phoenix eye)

Since we do not know who (originally) or why (actually) put the fist there, it is equally plausible to say that, like a lot of oriental things (particularly chinese) it is, given the given structure of the human body, just a neat, convenient and visually pleasing place to put it for the sole purpose of developing structural formalisation of the training forms; especially when no one actually fights that way!

Think of lifting your little pinky-finger when you hold a cup of tea; it just feels and looks better on the hands.

I don't think anyone will seriously argue that the bow is actually a head-butt?

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#231718 - 02/20/06 09:19 PM Re: Chambering the fist [Re: ButterflyPalm]
pathfinder7195 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/11/05
Posts: 336
Loc: T.C Michigan, U.S
Great post Butterflypalm!

If you chamber your fist at your waist you can feel several muscles being used at once. By holding the correct postures you can make you body very agile, strong, and flexible. If you hold your fist like a boxer(hand by your chin elbow by the ribs) you feel very little resistance on your muscles. Which does not help build the kung fu body but which forms are designed to do.

Kevin

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#231719 - 02/20/06 10:53 PM Re: Chambering the fist [Re: pathfinder7195]
monji112000 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/05/04
Posts: 177
depending on your school and style you will be shown different ideas. Actually I learned both Shaolin Northern and Southern before studying WC. I was never told to fight with my fist chambered, only in forms to have it at rib-cage level. ONE for building shoulder muscles, and the other for teaching you to pull and push with the elbow.

I have not seen a Kung Fu school fight in a chambered position in sparing, but that doesn't mean they are not doing it somewhere.

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#231720 - 02/21/06 08:15 AM Re: Chambering the fist [Re: monji112000]
Fisherman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/16/03
Posts: 1656
Loc: Colorado, USA
I don't think anyone at this point is going to argue that chambering the fist while fighting is not a good.
It is used as a tool to train a specific movement or range of motion that will be translated into a technique. What the technique is will depend on which range of motion used and the momentum involved.
To chamber your fist in a position that leaves part of your body vulnerable in a fight or sparring is senseless. Use the technique that the form teaches you, not the form itself.
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#231721 - 02/21/06 09:12 AM Re: Chambering the fist [Re: Fisherman]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Quote:

To chamber your fist in a position that leaves part of your body vulnerable in a fight or sparring is senseless. Use the technique that the form teaches you, not the form itself.




If that is true, then why not train or formulate training methods / regimes that will actually conform to the way people usually fight; like the way boxers do?

In other words, how does chambering your fist(s) (some actually chamber both fists at the same time) at the waist while in training translate into actual combat efficiency where there is no chambering at the waist whatsoever?

Look at Wing Chun for e.g.; When they practice their forms, sometimes both fists are chambered at the rib-cage; but when they fight, the hands are held way out in front. And they pride themselves with their 'one-inch' power which requires NO chambering at all; because in a real fight, there is just no time to chamber, and of course you also give your intentions away.

If there was ever a real (original) reason for chambering the fist right up to the tensile end-point of the whole hand in training, it was to apply the idea that by strengthening (speeding up) the pulling muscles (by forceful / fast chambering) you power-up the muscles that do the forward / punching movement (like stretching / twisting a rubber band to give it that snapping power) So that in an actual combat situation, you can have a short-range powerful punch without the need to chamber all the way to the waist.
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