Its not the same thing. take off the pads and you're dealing with a whole different animal.

you're teaching 15 & 30 year old kids how to break faces, bones and bodys - a 15 year old isn't mature enough for that yet, hasn't seen what can happen to people in bar-fights and doesn't have the life experience to know when to call on it - a 30 year old does.

I'm all for sparring but the difference between the ring and real life has to be maintained. i don't think kids beneath 12 really can make that difference - on the upside they won't pay enough attention to be able to hit hard anyway.

and to chickenchaser:

these kids are fighting for money to support there familys because they don't have any other real options.
saying that you're average suburban kid who'll be living out of daddys wallet till he's 16 and the thai kids are the same is a ridiculous statement.

I think, funstick that you win the prize for being the most obnoxiously steriotypical person on this forum. Saying that a 15 year old "isn't mature enough for that yet" is a load of

You justify majority on experience?

And the fact you think that anyone under 12 won't pay enough attention is another load of

actually i said we should do it but the distiction should be made and enforced. i beleive a lot of teachers truly forget what their teaching and the difference between with pads in here and the bareknuckle reality out there should be enforced.

oh and i'm 16.

Quote:

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Maybe not,However, a 16 yr old would be considered old enough.

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thanks for saying that. i'll re-clarrify my postion and stop generalising so much.

i'll put it with the only analogy i can think of right now:
you can take someone to a rifle range, teach them how to shoot a shotgun at a target and they'll have a good time. but has the person ever seen what a shotgun can do to a person when shot at medium range?

if i showed a kid a real life photo of it they'd have nightmares for weeks, and people teach kids to do this stuff. i've gotta go to work so i'll elaborate later.

Funstick,

That is why kids train ( do Shiai ) with pads not without. Nobody is teaching them to break bones and smash faces. I have 11 year olds in my classes that demonstrate more care for their techniques, themselves and other students then 45 year old students.
What experience with Kids do you have to substantiate your claims that you think kids under 12 don't understand the difference between in the Dojo and outside the Dojo. You think kids are stupid?

Your notion that kids won't be able to pay enough attention to hit hard is absurd. It is up to the instructor to operate a class that enables him or her to keep the kids attention. I assure you that by the time some of my students hit puberty they will be outhitting some adults. (Pound for Pound)

I suppose if your statement about kids are based on classes with 25 kids run by a 16 yer old green belt.....well now thats different. But I wouldn't refer to clubs like that as Martial Arts clubs.

there are different kinds of ages-

chronological - the one we refer to when we talk about age.

physical - the one we either wish for or despise lol.

social - the one that determines our maturity

psychological - the one that determines how much we can comprehend.

i never use chronological age as a BASIS to judge anyone, especially in MA. I'm chronologically 16, but that doesnt mean i am psychologically/socially 16.

to keep this on topic, i dont care how old someone is in MA, as long as they are mature enough and know how to conduct themselves in an appropriate manner. Thats where social/psychological age gets into play. As far as full contact sparring, i do it every now and then, and its not something u physically CAN do all the time, but its the best way to learn in my opinion, as long as its organized/regulated by someone who is of CHRONOLOGICAL maturity.

So a 100 hundred year old man would be cronologicaly capable of what now???? Senility

actually every time you say to them to do a punch you're teaching them to mutilate. these are some possibiltys from a midesection punch on an unarmoured body from a good punch.

if you punch to the mid-section you're teaching to hit to the solar plexus, damaging the diaphagram, stopping the natural breathing and making someone momentarily suffocate from a lack of air. if you've ever felt this you should know how bad it feels. if it is any lower it will hit the intestines which can lead to internal bleeding and heamorraging which is very painful and possibly fatal.

if the opponent has their back turned then a mid section punch will be to the kidneys or spine; the kidneys will fail to properly process after being damaged some time, a bit left or right to the spine then there is the potential to break or damage the spine, if it does break severing neurological connections which can lead to paralization or even death if higher up the spine.

if the midsection punch is to the side of a body it will break the floating ribs. these bottom two ribs are far more likely to break as they are not attachted to the breast bone as the others are. they are also smaller and weaker. once broken they can very easily puncture a lung which can lead to a very painful death within an hour from suffacation on a persons own blood within their lung.

i can continue if you like. ok, same tchnique but to the face;

direct onwards.

to the nose. it breaks, massive pain and possible breathing restrictions.

to the jaw or temple: possibility of knockout - probably concussion from rapid movement of the brain can compression against the side of the skull. the temple can be cut open which although not that darngerous isn't all that pleasant. jaw could be broken or fractured if the mouth isn't closed, teeth losened up, broken or lost at the very least.

to the back of the head/cranium: possible knockout from top of spine. hitting the soft fleshy area at the base of the skull is a very likely knockout point. possibly neurological damage to the spine leading to paralization or death from loss of neurological connetections to most major organs and limbs. probable concussion which can lead to brain damage in repeated instances.

to the side of the head: a hit to the ear can damage the inner-ear bones. my grandfather was deaffened in one ear this way as a child.

this is all from the same punch, the simple punch that everyone starts with, the one you teach to kids and to everybody. everything i've described here i beleive can happen from a stong punch, loaded with adrenaline in the heat of the moment with some effects more extreme than others.

i've never been in a class where a green belt teaches a class of 25. i'd take two steps into the door and two back out again.

now i ask do the kids who'll be outhitting the adults understand the full implications or what they are doing? physically? psychologically? legally? have you explained to them what it feels like? do they have that hard dose of reality next to the badges ironed onto their gis my their mums?