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#229344 - 02/24/06 02:45 AM Re: "traditional" & "modern" TKD ... ? [Re: TeK9]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Quote:

What I said is true. Traditional TKD spar like most japanese karate schools do.




Sorry, I'd dispute this a little. You only have to look at a group like TAGB, who are a Chang Hon organisation but have had success in WTF-style competition. Likewise, an ITF club here in Poland has become involved in WTF (although they still practice Chang Hon) and are also having a lot of success (at least one of the members being listed for the Polish Olympic team).

Chang Hon stylists in UK (I can't speak much of other places) often use some very non-traditional looking techniques when competing.
_________________________
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#229345 - 02/24/06 11:53 AM Re: "traditional" & "modern" TKD ... ? [Re: trevek]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1674
Quote:

Quote:

What I said is true. Traditional TKD spar like most japanese karate schools do.




Sorry, I'd dispute this a little. You only have to look at a group like TAGB, who are a Chang Hon organisation but have had success in WTF-style competition. Likewise, an ITF club here in Poland has become involved in WTF (although they still practice Chang Hon) and are also having a lot of success (at least one of the members being listed for the Polish Olympic team).

Chang Hon stylists in UK (I can't speak much of other places) often use some very non-traditional looking techniques when competing.




My understanding is that more & more European ITF schools have been making a pretty succesful transition as well, whether it be Olympic or MMA's comps. As I said, coaches & instructors are important and competent they should be, but it always comes down to the competitor in the ring. I think that Tek's statement above is VERY elitist and he should recognize it as such. I know of several ITF fighters that have no problem in the Olympic sparring venue and have won. Thats the nice thing about the AAU, it is a sister org to the WTF, but you can be a member of the ITF and still join AAU and compete in WTF venue's. I really wish that I could get that full contact ITF video to download again, that way Tek could see how similar they really are !

VDJ

P.S. Tek, I have been informed that there is an ITF tourney in Northern California next month. I am trying to get a date and location for you and hopefully it will be close enough for you to attend to see.

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#229346 - 02/24/06 07:10 PM Re: "traditional" & "modern" TKD ... ? [Re: VDJ]
dicen Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/06
Posts: 57
I don't know about this one cause both tek9's and vdj's arguements hold true but considering if we'er talking about elite athletes not those who compete on the international level I have to agree with VDJ, the reason why is because I read a blackbelt magazine article about how the Chinese TKD team won I believe bronze in the ASian Games after only training for 2 or 3 years. And these tkd competitor had no other prior martial arts training, they were swimmers and gymnasts. 2 or 3 years is a short time, in my opinion from noob to elite tkd athlete, though they were already elite athletes in different sports but it still supports VDJ's arguement.

I'll try to find the article, but I believe it was Tim Conolly who trained them.

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#229347 - 03/08/06 03:25 AM Re: "traditional" & "modern" TKD ... ? [Re: Dereck]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Darn it...this was a real good topic, unfortunetly we desputed it to death and it looks like there are no more fresh opinions on the subject matter, I just thought I'd revive it one last time with this useless statement hoping someone out there maybe one of the new members might have a fresh perespective on it.

Come on Guys step up and stake your claim to fame.

-Tek
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
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#229348 - 03/08/06 06:00 AM Re: "traditional" & "modern" TKD ... ? [Re: TeK9]
theoldone Offline
Member

Registered: 03/05/06
Posts: 172
Hmmm...

I will not wade into the traditional vs.modern TKD pool. You guys enjoy the water there. The only thing I'll mention about the pool is this:

I've seen lots of instructors being "chastised" by examiners after gradings, with the examiner saying, "They're doing such and such, and it is not acceptable. This is a martial art, not sport, but they are doing tournament techniques. I know competitions are an important part of the curriculum, but in gradings, they're being tested on the martial arts".

True.

I have also heard sport TKD coaches say to their students, "Why bother blocking when you can intercept and score immediately. Think you'll last 6, 7 matches with all that blocking? Don't block. Just kick".

True.

Haute cuisine is not fast food and fast food is not haute cuisine. Whether either is nutritious or not is, of course, an entirely different matter. But generally, you can call both "food". An appreciation of one can enhance your understanding of the other.

Likewise, if one can appreciate and understand the "traditional", it will enhance an understanding and appreciation of the "modern". And vice versa.

Just try it. Look at the modern and try to find the "secrets" that can help you power up the traditional. Look at the traditional and try to find the "secrets" that can help you power up the modern.

I assure you they are there. You just have to look with different eyes an a "seeking mind". No, I'm not trying to be "Zen-ish" here. The "secrets" are really there (note the use of quote marks in "secrets")

-------------------------------------

As for whether an ITF can do well in WTF sparring (and vice versa or not), remember that competitive sparring is a game. Each game has its own rules, such as what constitute a score, and its own dynamics etc., etc. If you design your training to work with those rules and according to the dynamics of the game and train your student-athletes accordingly, they have a very good chance of winning, regardless of whether they're WTF or ITF (or even from Karate)

So, the game works this way, you design your tactics, drills, etc., based on it, then drill your student-athletes in those specifics, and they will have a good chance. It is not a matter of which "style" they're originally from.

For example, take someone from Silat, train them specifically according to the rules (and methods) of, say, competitive wushu sparring, and they might do very well, because the game allows sweeps and locks, etc. Or take someone from Hapkido and train them for competitive Silat. Things like that.

Actually, we've already done this. I'm very good friends with a few Silat and Karate coaches/instructors and we've "exchanged" athletes. "Hey, you got anyone in the 78 - 84kg category? I need one. You do? Great, send him over for training. Eh? You need one in the below 50kg? Ok, I've got one. He'll be there Monday".

You just need to adapt to the specifics of the game. If you don't, then your students (or you) will simply lose because the dice is loaded against you right from the beginning.

For instance, take someone use to full-contact WTF and put him in, say, point Karate. If he spars according to the rules of WTF, he's going to get disqualified for excessive contact.

Likewise, put someone from point Karate into a WTF contest without adequate adaptive training, and he'll lose from not scoring anything even though he might have scored hundreds of points according to the rules of point Karate. In either case, it is not a reflection on the effectiveness of a "style"

It's not the "style". It's the specific training.

To paraphrase Archimedes, "Give me a player long enough and strong enough, and I can make him a champion".


Edited by theoldone (03/08/06 06:05 AM)

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