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#229334 - 02/21/06 06:36 PM Re: "traditional" & "modern" TKD ... ? [Re: VDJ]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
I don't think there are any "real" applications to TKD Poomse.

I am a firm believer in the effectiveness of all arts if they are understood (and more to the point if real combat is understood), However...

The korean forefathers of tkd were taught a non-application based shotokan with many ideas about techniques and kata that we now laugh at with disdain and wonder how so many karateka went so long without questioning them.

TKD's effectiveness came from the solid contact based training of basic techniques that are not all listed in its forms. TKD is a modern art that was transmitted not through kata but through basics and sparring.

Add to this void of kata knowledge the fact that the Taeguks were created not to teach combat but as a means of seperating TKD from the Conformity device of the japanese invaders (aka karate) and you have a bunch of forms that mean next to nothing as far as actual fighting goes.

On the other hand... next to nothing is still something (hence the "mostly" disagree)...

Perhaps I am just biased because I studied Shotokan forms before I studied Taeguks. If u break down and practice the taeguk forms with a view to fighting then you will fight with them; they are just karate basics and so they work as well as karate basics do (all though a number of the combinations are questionable). My gripe is just that they lack the same depth mainly because of how obviously they try to get away from their ancestry. TKD really comes into its own when it fights as a Modern art as opposed to attempting to relive a history that isn't there.

Also please dont get me wrong I am a strong supporter of TKD as its own modern art and a firm believer in its effectiveness. I very much prise the knowledge and ability I've gained from TKD.

As for TKD being derived from many korean arts and other MA besides karate, I have often heard this said but I have never heard anything concrete to support this.

-Shonuff


The post above was takend from two posts contributed by Shonuf regarding TKD. I have copied and posted it on here to represent a similar attitude towards Modern TKD.

-TeK

P.S. Dicen thank you for clearing that up for them, if they don't understand now they probably never will.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#229335 - 02/21/06 08:07 PM Re: "traditional" & "modern" TKD ... ? [Re: TeK9]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1674
Quote:

I don't think there are any "real" applications to TKD Poomse.

I am a firm believer in the effectiveness of all arts if they are understood (and more to the point if real combat is understood), However...

The korean forefathers of tkd were taught a non-application based shotokan with many ideas about techniques and kata that we now laugh at with disdain and wonder how so many karateka went so long without questioning them.

TKD's effectiveness came from the solid contact based training of basic techniques that are not all listed in its forms. TKD is a modern art that was transmitted not through kata but through basics and sparring.

Add to this void of kata knowledge the fact that the Taeguks were created not to teach combat but as a means of seperating TKD from the Conformity device of the japanese invaders (aka karate) and you have a bunch of forms that mean next to nothing as far as actual fighting goes.

On the other hand... next to nothing is still something (hence the "mostly" disagree)...

Perhaps I am just biased because I studied Shotokan forms before I studied Taeguks. If u break down and practice the taeguk forms with a view to fighting then you will fight with them; they are just karate basics and so they work as well as karate basics do (all though a number of the combinations are questionable). My gripe is just that they lack the same depth mainly because of how obviously they try to get away from their ancestry. TKD really comes into its own when it fights as a Modern art as opposed to attempting to relive a history that isn't there.

Also please dont get me wrong I am a strong supporter of TKD as its own modern art and a firm believer in its effectiveness. I very much prise the knowledge and ability I've gained from TKD.

As for TKD being derived from many korean arts and other MA besides karate, I have often heard this said but I have never heard anything concrete to support this.

-Shonuff


The post above was takend from two posts contributed by Shonuf regarding TKD. I have copied and posted it on here to represent a similar attitude towards Modern TKD.

-TeK

P.S. Dicen thank you for clearing that up for them, if they don't understand now they probably never will.





The same could be said the other way as well Tek. If you don't see the the applications in the forms (looking beyond just the movement) then you never will as long as you keep the blinders on. I would love to be able to train with you Tek, just because I think I could show you more of what I mean rather than trying to always put it down in words. Maybe someday that will be a reality, until then, we have this forum !

VDJ

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#229336 - 02/22/06 12:08 PM Re: "traditional" & "modern" TKD ... ? [Re: TeK9]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Does anyone here train for Olympic style sparring?
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

Top
#229337 - 02/22/06 12:30 PM Re: "traditional" & "modern" TKD ... ? [Re: TeK9]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Yes, but not a lot. Our Taekwondo sparring is WTF Olympic style and we are tested on this for each belt with requirements. However we don't emphasize this type of sparring so may only spar like this once every week or once every two weeks. And then if you don't come to that class during the week it is provided you may not spar for a month. Some people will try to hit the sparring classes everytime they come up whereas myself I try to hit every grappling class. It is a matter of preference and why I'm better on the ground then stand up. I have to know the stand up so I do attend these classes (but could do more). Again sparring is a requirement for testing whereas grappling you are not tested on at this point until you are a 3rd Dan and higher.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#229338 - 02/22/06 12:59 PM Re: "traditional" & "modern" TKD ... ? [Re: TeK9]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
its all coming back to how the person is training in my opinion.just because one person cant see or comprehend how to use patterns doesnt mean another cant.
its impossible to go into things in words,better to show.like iv said alot depends on the technique of who's doing it.
the modern thing again is still confusing me in a way.i still dont get what the point is.lets say we do label it modern..then what?
i can see how the olympic sparring is modern and evolved for the enviroment its in.i can imagine,i think, how patterns could be done to go more towards sparring based things.though iv not seen these patterns and it would be interesting to.
though when it comes to self defence its just what works.
no modern no traditional.iv used my TKD for real so to me ,if we were to talk of modern etc...id be modern enough.lol.modern means the 'other' isnt and so outdated.you cant outdate a hard front kick to someones nuts..or a sweep or an open hand strike.or a knee or an elbow or a knife hand strike or a hammer fist or ...etc,etc
and where are all theses found...in patterns.well in the ITF ones i do.

iv actually done what i call a TKD middle block in a real situation..it wasnt as clean and it more smothered and off ballanced them so i could pile in.depending on your technique people might read it and go ..''thats crap'',others might go..''i can see how thats so''....i dont care.it worked for me.i train it to work.it wont for others.
its too personal to class.
ilike treveks one...art side ,sport side,real application side.
_________________________
I point my saxaphone at the rare Booted Gorilla.

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#229339 - 02/22/06 04:53 PM Re: "traditional" & "modern" TKD ... ? [Re: TeK9]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1674
Quote:

Does anyone here train for Olympic style sparring?





Yes, we do, as well as stop point. As I said, my intructor is very accomplished in Olympic style sparring, just doesn't reccomend it for self defense. Being an ex NYS Trooper and one of their top self defense tactical instructors, she feels that these techniques are more effective.

VDJ

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#229340 - 02/23/06 01:18 PM Re: "traditional" & "modern" TKD ... ? [Re: sjon]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
When you attend a Modern TKD school the focus is on WTF style sparring. Infact not every TKD instructor is well suited to teach kids this kind of training. When you walk into a sparring orientated school you see it's more of an athletic environment. Usually the students tend to be in better shape. Many times TKD schools offer competitive training programs as a special program which require additional fee's. They are advertised in similar fashion as Black belt club or Little dragons program. Sometimes teachers would hire other instructors who have experience in this kind of training. Because these techniques are fairly new and always evolving. SO it's kind of a seperate entity from traditional TKD.

The difference between athletes really is dependant ono the school they attend and the instruction of their teachers. A practitioner of traditional tkd who competes in wtf style sparring would not be able to hold his own against against a competitor from a sparring orientated school. Even if the traditionalist where to rpactice sparring on a constant basis, the right instructor is needed in order to become proficient.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

Top
#229341 - 02/23/06 03:05 PM Re: "traditional" & "modern" TKD ... ? [Re: TeK9]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1674
Quote:

When you attend a Modern TKD school the focus is on WTF style sparring. Infact not every TKD instructor is well suited to teach kids this kind of training. When you walk into a sparring orientated school you see it's more of an athletic environment. Usually the students tend to be in better shape. Many times TKD schools offer competitive training programs as a special program which require additional fee's. They are advertised in similar fashion as Black belt club or Little dragons program. Sometimes teachers would hire other instructors who have experience in this kind of training. Because these techniques are fairly new and always evolving. SO it's kind of a seperate entity from traditional TKD.

The difference between athletes really is dependant ono the school they attend and the instruction of their teachers. A practitioner of traditional tkd who competes in wtf style sparring would not be able to hold his own against against a competitor from a sparring orientated school. Even if the traditionalist where to rpactice sparring on a constant basis, the right instructor is needed in order to become proficient.





Tek,

Your comment about a tradiitionalist who would spar against a competitor who focus' strictly on WTF sparring couldn't hold their own is crap and untrue. I would expect better of you, this is a very elitist statement. There have been many that have crossed over and not only held their own, but won ! Yes, coaches and instructors are important, but in the end, its up to the competitor ! Remember, anybody can beat anybody when it's their day. James "Buster" Douglas proved that when he KO'd Tyson, and that wasn't Kevin Rooney's fault either !

VDJ

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#229342 - 02/23/06 05:37 PM Re: "traditional" & "modern" TKD ... ? [Re: VDJ]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
What I said is true. Traditional TKD spar like most japanese karate schools do. If any of them were to try and switch over to wtf sparring they would not do well without the proper training. No matter how much sparring they did in thier school. The right instructor is needed to teach wtf style sparring. Even if your current instructor were WTF offiliated and certified he may not know a single thing about sparring. This is a fact. Which seperates the elite competitors from the rest.

Buster douglas beat mike tyson in the same sport they have both competed all their lives, both of them were familiar with the rules. A better example would be a kick boxer vs. a boxer. SImilar but different. Just like my TKD example; similar but different.

I suppose my statement could be percived ini a number of ways. Some could give me the benefit of the doubt and assume all things not being equal the traditionalist is going to a new style of sparrign with different rules...ofcourse he wouldn't stand a chance, then again there are those who would just like to post something.

P.S. we need more threads in this forum, think of orignal ideas people, think debatable issues. We have the second most popular forum. But we get more spectators than actualy posters. Dont be afraid to post your thoughts guys. It's scarry tpo be judge but who gives a hoot, say what you want to say and see what others think of it.

You will get three kinds of responses. EDither someone praises you for what you say, judges you claims you are right or wrong and then states their own opinion contrary to yours, or they just right what they feel without judgeing you. Good lukc on the thrid one though.

So step up folks.
On a seperate note, I believe mike tyson lost that match because he had just switched promoters, his trainer left him, and did you see his corner? durring the breaks they didn't even provide him with a stool to sit on in many of the breaks, he had no experienced cut man, they didn't even bring ice for him to use. Tyson was telling his corner what to do he was applying th vaseline on himself. If I remember correctly some guy decided to fill a hand glove with some cold water and that served as his ice pack.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

Top
#229343 - 02/24/06 12:33 AM Re: "traditional" & "modern" TKD ... ? [Re: TeK9]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
TeK, I will have to go with VDJ on this. Anybody can beat anybody and I think somebody coming over from ITF could do very well in WTF if that is the kind of person they are. I honestly believe it is what somebody has inside that makes everything on the outside work so well.

But I will pass on this tid bit for you. Years back (before my time) our WTF club entered an ITF tournament (continuous point sparring). Even lightly sparring for points and not trying to kill them like our club is used to, our WTF fighters clearly were the better fighters and eventually we were asked to leave because they were going too hard when clearly they weren't and the ITF clubs were too frightened to fight us.

A month ago our Instructor took some of the junior fighters (16-18) to a kick boxing tournament and after one of our 18 years olds won his first 3 fights definitively and his 4th by knock out, he was disqualified for being too aggressive and going too hard. Got me on that one, especially when one of our 17 years olds was punched in the face and had to take a time out to stop the bleeding and when it continued he kicked the hell out of the guy and then was disqualified as well for being too hard.

Again it is the people, the mentality and what they have inside that counts. The skills can help don't get me wrong as clearly many of our junior fighters far exceeded their fighters ... eventhough they were seasoned tournament fighters and this was our first attempts.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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