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#229324 - 02/18/06 11:19 PM Re: "traditional" & "modern" TKD ... ? [Re: VDJ]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
I consider the ITF traditional TKD or Korean Karate because it looks very much like Shotokan.

And I consider the WTF modern because it's forms are unique and actually depict the types of techniques and stances used in sparring. Furthermore, modern tkd kicks are performed in a different manner with emphasis is more on sparring.

The traditional aspects are still the same as they are with almost any oriental art. A sense of spiritualism, ethics, philosphy and ritual are still involved. It is only the phsysical aspects that have changed.
_________________________
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#229325 - 02/18/06 11:26 PM Re: "traditional" & "modern" TKD ... ? [Re: Dereck]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Yea many of the sparring techniques have really been recent, you can always find articles written by Herb Perez talking about some new kind of strategy, kicks, combination. Many things he said were not available to him back in 1988.

Herb Perez, 1992, First American TKD Olympic Gold Medalist; Barcelona, Spain.
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#229326 - 02/19/06 10:16 AM Re: "traditional" & "modern" TKD ... ? [Re: TeK9]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1674
Quote:

I consider the ITF traditional TKD or Korean Karate because it looks very much like Shotokan.

And I consider the WTF modern because it's forms are unique and actually depict the types of techniques and stances used in sparring. Furthermore, modern tkd kicks are performed in a different manner with emphasis is more on sparring.

The traditional aspects are still the same as they are with almost any oriental art. A sense of spiritualism, ethics, philosphy and ritual are still involved. It is only the phsysical aspects that have changed.




Then you haven't been reading anything I said at all. Yes it's roots are from Shotokan as is most of TKD (If you called Chang Hon "Korean karate", you would be putting your training to the test as it is they who consider Kukki more karate like !). Go watch an ITF sparring tournament, VERY similar to Olympic. And finally for the umpteenth time, no other martial art emphasizes (or accepts for most matters) the sine wave ! Also, please give me a reference in the name of a WTF pattern that makes it unique and its stances how more emphasis to sparring stances, as all the patterns I have seen from WTF have a much longer and deeper stance than does Chang Hon (with the exception of the walking stance found in Koryo).

VDJ

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#229327 - 02/19/06 10:30 AM Re: "traditional" & "modern" TKD ... ? [Re: TeK9]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1674
Quote:

Yea many of the sparring techniques have really been recent, you can always find articles written by Herb Perez talking about some new kind of strategy, kicks, combination. Many things he said were not available to him back in 1988.

Herb Perez, 1992, First American TKD Olympic Gold Medalist; Barcelona, Spain.




The reason for this is that the WTF is a much larger org than the ITF and its success in getting their version of sparring into the olympics. It does not make them any more modern than Chang Hon. All styles have an evolutionary aspect to them as well as a traditional side. This is why I have an issue considering only olympic sparring to be the "Modern" version. It only seems that way as it gets more exposure than it's chang hon counter part. Now I am not very familiar as to how Muay Thai has evolved, but do you think that they have not also changed some of their techniques in how to become better fighters ? This is true of most all martial arts, kukki and chang hon, as well as keeping their traditional sides!

VDJ

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#229328 - 02/19/06 02:35 PM Re: "traditional" & "modern" TKD ... ? [Re: VDJ]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
All the taeguek 1-8 have the walking stance in them. And the forward, back and cat stances are shorter more upright than in any other style of forms practiced. They are certanly not deeper.

Also I think your psuhing this whole sign wave thing, I dont think many people outside the ITF have ever heard of it. It does not sound like some revolutionary practice as you try and make it to be.

As for me going to an ITF tourny, they must only keep to themselves because out here in northern california I never here about any. I attend open tournaments and see non WTF TKDer's not sure if they are ITF but they are certainly traditional TKD.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#229329 - 02/19/06 02:51 PM Re: "traditional" & "modern" TKD ... ? [Re: VDJ]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Sure it makes WTF style more modern and uniquely different from all other versions of TKD. Back when the kwans were trying to unite or were united. All the styles looked the same. The practice methods were the same. The way the kicks were executed were the same. When they broke up each kwan made up their own forms...big deal forms dont really make a difference if everyone has the same techniques just in different order, they pretty much are all still the same style. However, the WTF no longer looks that way. They have changed thier stances, kicks, and emphasise sparring. Sparring which is now a world wide practice Olympic sport. This is the true evolution of TKD and something that can be traced to back to korea, unlike those old masters who claimed they learned taekyon, subak and cant really trace back their history passed thie own teachers or mysterious monk masters.

The current modern TKD is a martial art that is purely korean made, it has evolved from it'sjapanese counter part and has become something new. Something purely korean. Something they can say "OKay this is when we did this, changed this, adopted this and that into the system" Somthing they can all agree on. Unlike the kwons who couldn't even get along in the past with everyones mixed history about where they really trained and under who they trained with. Hell you can even call it Olympic TKD making it completely different from all the other ones. People may complain about the modern TKD system and how it's so non traditional and it's less lethal more sport. But they just need to be happy that they are tagging along onthe band wagon simply because their school uses the name taekwondo and for all their whinning and complaining they are benefiting from teh current popularity in modern tkd.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#229330 - 02/19/06 04:54 PM Re: "traditional" & "modern" TKD ... ? [Re: TeK9]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
tek in the beginning post of yours you were comparing your 'modern' to 'traditional' and i was saying that we in the ITF spar the way you do too except under different rules.we are all using the same techniques when we spar.footwork etc...all these things you mention.we are all doing it.
its going round in circles.
what is your point of pointing out your WTF you do is modern?
how come you want to point this out?or bring it up?
there was no need in the beginningto talk of the roundkick knee chambered up or footwork or evading as we all do it.
what was the reason in the beginning?

and the patterns evolve too.tecniques can be worked realisticaly.in fact id say that as training goes on we all personaly evolve and get better at techniques or change it anyhow.


Edited by matxtx (02/19/06 04:58 PM)
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#229331 - 02/19/06 06:33 PM Re: "traditional" & "modern" TKD ... ? [Re: TeK9]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1674
Quote:

All the taeguek 1-8 have the walking stance in them. And the forward, back and cat stances are shorter more upright than in any other style of forms practiced. They are certanly not deeper.

Also I think your psuhing this whole sign wave thing, I dont think many people outside the ITF have ever heard of it. It does not sound like some revolutionary practice as you try and make it to be.

As for me going to an ITF tourny, they must only keep to themselves because out here in northern california I never here about any. I attend open tournaments and see non WTF TKDer's not sure if they are ITF but they are certainly traditional TKD.




The problem here Tek is termonology. The walking stance in Kukki is not the same as it is in Chang Hon. Yes it is much shorter an upright than the Chang Hon walking stance, but the Kukki front stance is much longer and deeper and more similar to the Chang Hon walking stance than the Kukki counter part of the same name. Cat stance is also found in numerous Chang Hon patterns but is refered to as Rear stance. The L-stance in Chang Hon is shorter than the back stance in Kukki and the Kukki fixed stance is by far longer and deeper than Chang Hon. I have seen the Taeguek patterns and other than the two stances that you point out (which can be found in Chang Hon patterns under the afore mentioned names) the stances are longer and deeper (more karate like).

And as far as the sine wave, I am not pushing anything, it is part of their curriculum and is documented in their encyclopedia. Again, the reason you may not be finding ITF tourney's is because WTF is a much larger org. The south Korean gov't backs it and help it grow as to combat the General when they had their falling out. I suggest that you visit one of their web sites to see where a tourney may be near you. It is much more prevalent in Canada than it is in the states but its here. As a matter of fact I will talk to some friends of mine who might be able to direct you as to help you out with this. When I get the info I will PM you with it.

Lastly, what you are refering to as purely Korean again is just evolutionary of the roots of which it came and is only the sporting aspect of it and I do not see a lot of people jumping on the bandwagon as you have claimed. It is in REAL danger of losing its olympic status after the 2008 games.

VDJ

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#229332 - 02/20/06 12:34 AM Re: "traditional" & "modern" TKD ... ? [Re: sjon]
dicen Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/06
Posts: 57
I believe we need to step back away from the "Organizations" for a moment and talk about the techniques and philosophy. I think that is where Tek9 is trying to categorize.

Before the Taeguk forms there were the Palgaes and Chung Chi forms. Now if those forms are very similar to shotokan Karate. Now along with that in the old days you couldn't really distinguish TKD and Karate their techniques were the same the only difference was their choice in techniques, Karate was hands oriented while TKD emphasized kicking. The way the techniques were executed were the same for both styles. Now I believe this is what Tek9 is trying to refer to as the "traditional" style.

The "modern" style of TKD would be when the Taeguk forms were introduced, which would be around the time TKD switched to a continous sparring system, much like boxing, eliminating hand techniques to the head (I'm not mentioning organizations because it is not relavent to the topic). When this form of sparring was introduced new forms were created along with techniques geared toward the new sparring system. Kicks were studied and changed to become more efficient, faster, but with a bit less power. For example, the roundhouse kick no longer looked like a person swinging a baseball bat, the chamber looked similar to a front kick. Stances were not as deep as before they were now walking stances instead of back stances and such. This allowed for faster combinations and more movability. The "traditional" strategy of "one punch one kill" no longer applied to this new form of sparring. For example it is rare to see a boxer knock out a person with just one punch, those individuals that can do that are very rare. Boxers rely on punching combinations to take out their opponent. This is the case with this new form of TKD sparring. The techniques changed, the philosphy changed, the new forms were created to exihibit the new way of doing the techniques.

Now that being said compare the "traditional" with the "modern" style of TKD, you would see a distinct difference. The reason Tek9 calls them styles is because there are TKD schools that teach the "traditional" style. Sjon brought up a point that he would rather not call them styles but instead list them as TKD time periods, but that would mean that the "traditional" method of TKD was in the past, but it still is being taught now, so it cannot be a time period it has to be a style because the techniques are different, and the philosophy is different. An example could be Hapkido and Aikido. They both have roots from Daito Ryu Justsu but they have different philosohpies and some of their techniques though similar are done differently. I believe this was what Tek9 was trying to convey and yes you should be able to categorize them because they are different in application of technique and in philosophy.

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#229333 - 02/20/06 06:08 AM Re: "traditional" & "modern" TKD ... ? [Re: VDJ]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Not being a shotokan stylist (unless you include Chang Hon ) I am only going by what I have read. Older stances of shotokan were apparently a lot higher than modern ones. Apparently if you look at old pictures of shotokan the modern stances are much deeper. In which case is there an argument that the higher stnces of Kukki are closer to older stances of shotokan?

check out some of the pictures here:

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/le_ronin/Accueil.htm


Edited by trevek (02/20/06 06:20 AM)
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