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#229314 - 02/18/06 12:38 PM Re: "traditional" & "modern" TKD ... ? [Re: TeK9]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
i think for me im just going to call it 'art side' and 'sports side'.
it depends on who you are and what you want out of TKD.
things either work or they dont.useable technique or useless technique...for whatever you want to do.

i just dont like seeing assumptions and people talking of things they dont care for or study.we should all stick to what we kmow of our training and shut up about others.doesnt matter what a book in 1950 said or a book on another thing.or getting information like that then painting al like that. that doesnt convey accuracy for everything.you can read so many versions of anykind of history or thing..heck i even saw today how some think the playwright shakespear was actually the poet marlowe or vise versa.lol.

and tek i know you dont like forms.im nottryingto convert or change your mind.its impossible to do so with anyone.
im referingto yourerliest post of comparing 'modern' to 'tradition' and your talk of long windedness.. ...faster things etc.you came across as it was wrong then, yet your way is right now.and that we all do what you did hence we are all wrong and outdated and your ways the dogs b######s im sorry if im wrong on that assumption.
im going to go read marlowe..erm shakespear..erm..sod it......little red riding hood will do.
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#229315 - 02/18/06 03:27 PM Re: "traditional" & "modern" TKD ... ? [Re: matxtx]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Oh you mean my refference to the round house kick. How traditionaly TKDer's lifted the knee out and swung the leg in a wide arc trajectory towards the target. And how for sport they used scicence to come up with a faster way of kicking which is shorter and depends more on the hip. The way modern TKDer's do the round kick they start by lifting the knee straight up, it's similar chamber to front kick, infact you cant see the differenc in between the two kicks until the kicker decides to turn his hips at the last moment and re-direct the leg, bending the knee and turning the hips simultaneously.

This simultaneously hip rotation and knee bending is what makes this kick the hardest to learn of the basic kicks. At least in modern sparring based TKD.

Usually though for breaking the old way is preffered because you get more power.

Remember fellas old does not mean BAD, jst means traditional, it does not mean useless. NOt in this case anyway, it's a matter of prefference. However, for sparring purposes it's found that the new way is superior. However for in-close self defense either way is fine.

I say this because I have seen american kenpo, kajukenpo,uechi ryu, and tang soo do practitioners use the old way in self defense.

-TeK
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
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#229316 - 02/18/06 03:40 PM Re: "traditional" & "modern" TKD ... ? [Re: TeK9]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
oh.no.not a specific technique just i thought it was your view of all alot of them.

yea i do the sport sparring kick too.though i wouldnt say it depends more on the hip than the art kick does(if thats what you meant).for both kicks the hip is involved.
good point on the science bit.i believe alot of TKD is based on the theory of power and newtons law and other motion sciences.

mm i must state iv nothing against the sports side.i really like it.its hard to be a top sparrer physicaly,especially done well.lots of respect to the tactic side and speed at which you have to think..or 'not think'.lol.the combinations.jeez.my legs ache thinking about it.lol.
i just like to offer the other view and the positives of the art side.and not see it painted one way.


Edited by matxtx (02/18/06 03:49 PM)
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#229317 - 02/18/06 03:53 PM Re: "traditional" & "modern" TKD ... ? [Re: matxtx]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Quote:

i think for me im just going to call it 'art side' and 'sports side'.




my old sabum used to differentiate further by saying there was the art, the sport and the real (practical).
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#229318 - 02/18/06 04:07 PM Re: "traditional" & "modern" TKD ... ? [Re: trevek]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
My focus on TKD is on sparring and self defense. Both I would put under practical.

I also like to do research on psychological aspects such as decision making under stress.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
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#229319 - 02/18/06 04:51 PM Re: "traditional" & "modern" TKD ... ? [Re: TeK9]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
I believe a big part of the misunderstanding that many people on this forum have with me is that I try and promote the positive aspect of modern tkd. It may not be your fault I may not be presenting my views in a proper fashion. You say I am very much for the practice of sparring. Particularly the practice of modern tkd sparring under the WTF rules. I like it; I enjoy sparring with those limitations. It has allowed me to see just how effective kicks can be. Much the same as in judo, the limitations used in randori sparring as influenced all martial arts by showing the value in throwing and sweeping techniques. If not for judo sparring rules, everyone would probably just be doing locking or bone breaking.

Now many might read this and say "is he crazy, when is a spinning jumping hook kick appropriate in self defense?"

As I have said many times, those who practice sport know not to use such techniques in self defense. Besides when I say sparring I am not referring to the sport techniques, but the basic techniques which are learned in all TKD schools no matter what style of TKD you practice.

The difference between traditional and modern tkd lie in the emphasis. Modern tkd is geared towards sparring and competition. However, this does not mean self defense is not practice and that it is not practical. Most traditional tkd schools are geared towards self defense and forms practice along with breaking. This does not mean they do not spar.

Being a practitioner from two very different schools I have seen the difference in which the kicking techniques are executed. Same kicks however, performed differently. The modern kicks were created because of the focus on sparring. Now I myself have chosen to prefer the newer way of kicking than the old because it allows me to have speed and mobility. Another practitioner may prefer the traditional way of kicking because they have more power.

Now many of you know what step sparring is, this is a method of teaching practical self defense and fighting techniques using tkdís entire arsenal. As many of you know these step sparring exercises will always be appropriate in self defense situations. We practice the exercises in order to familiar ourselves with the technique and their application however, in a real life situation we will find that we will have to make alterations to our techniques in order to adapt to the situation.

Example: In a step sparring technique the attacker attacks and the defender blocks and then counterattacks. In the dojang you may have practiced your step sparring exercise with 5 counter attacking techniques, maybe 4 strikes followed by 1 kick to finish off the assailant. However, in a real life situation you may find that only the 4 strikes are necessary to finish off your assailant. And you didnít use the kick. This is the kind of alteration each martial artist will have to make.

Another example of step sparring vs. multiple attackers: first, assailant attacks, defender (you) block and then counter however, before you finish your step sparring exercise the way you practice in the dojang, you see the second assailant begin his attack. So you must cut your step sparring exercise short in order to deal with the other attacker.

Now you have only managed to get 1 hit on the first attacker and now are blocking the attack of the second assailant. Now since you managed to get 1 hit off the first assailant, you may have time to perform the full step sparring exercise technique on the second assailant. However, that may not be the case and so you must make alterations again, depending on the situation.

Depending on the attacks you flow from one step soaring exercise to the other, making alterations as you go along.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#229320 - 02/18/06 04:58 PM Re: "traditional" & "modern" TKD ... ? [Re: TeK9]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Some people get hung up calling the traditional the "art" and modern "sport". I think they have a misunderstanding of the definition of the art. When referring to oriental arts, the art means the way or path, similar to the DO. But I think many practitioners think it's refers to the aesthetic when it does not, it is the combination of the spiritual and philosophical with the physical. This makes Taekwondo an art. So in essence either you practice the traditional or the modern it is still a martial art.

-Tek
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#229321 - 02/18/06 05:11 PM Re: "traditional" & "modern" TKD ... ? [Re: TeK9]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1674
Quote:

Trevek it's traditional because it's the samething as Japanese karate. Only back then it was called Korean Karate. Which is the same thing as Japanese karate.

The Modern TKD is less than 40 years old, when the techniques were changed to revolved more around the sparring




This is where we differ Tek. You consider Chang Hon/ITF traditional. Kukki also has`a lot of traditional as well. Practiced mostly as Chung Do Kwan. It has`nothing to do with the ITF. It's patterns are different, the stances are somewhat different, the terminology is different, BUT there sparring is strictly Olympic. This is what I have been trying to get at. You are trying to separate the sparring from the other side of it and then call it modern. I can't remember who posted this above as this thread has become so long, but they mention the sine wave only being about 15 or so years into the chang hon style, and they are correct, it wa part of its modernerzation, or better yet, its evolution. ITF has also gone to continuous sparring, some venues full contact, this also makes it more modern. What I have been saying all along is your view of the differences was more narrow. Modern TKD applies to both orgs and styles, just now olympic sparring !

VDJ

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#229322 - 02/18/06 05:13 PM Re: "traditional" & "modern" TKD ... ? [Re: VDJ]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1674
"just now olympic sparring"

that should read :

"just not olympic sparring"

VDJ

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#229323 - 02/18/06 06:40 PM Re: "traditional" & "modern" TKD ... ? [Re: TeK9]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Quote:

Oh you mean my refference to the round house kick. How traditionaly TKDer's lifted the knee out and swung the leg in a wide arc trajectory towards the target. And how for sport they used scicence to come up with a faster way of kicking which is shorter and depends more on the hip. The way modern TKDer's do the round kick they start by lifting the knee straight up, it's similar chamber to front kick, infact you cant see the differenc in between the two kicks until the kicker decides to turn his hips at the last moment and re-direct the leg, bending the knee and turning the hips simultaneously.

This simultaneously hip rotation and knee bending is what makes this kick the hardest to learn of the basic kicks. At least in modern sparring based TKD.




This part of your post TeK caught my eye. Not too long ago when talking with my Instructor he said they practiced what you refer to as the "traditional" or "old way" of kicking the roundhouse. And this was how the WTF did it as well. Then when his Master went home to South Korea and returned back, he said that things had changed and they were going to change as well for the roundhouse making it faster. This was probably only about 15 years ago. So up until then I would bet many WTF were still doing it the older way as well.

Just thought I'd share that.

And further to this topic of changing. His Master though still paying his dues to the WTF no longer follows there ways because of too many changes that are not for the good. My Instructor being on the board of the Taekwondo Alliance has also noted several changes that are coming around that he also doesn't agree with. For now were are continuing as is as I think many are. Will me change to fit all of the WTF's changes ... who knows for sure but there is a possibility we may not and do what is best for the school and students. Remember, all changes are not necessarily good.
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