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#229294 - 02/16/06 05:18 AM Re: "traditional" & "modern" TKD ... ? [Re: Dereck]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
ok, maybe i was wrong. i suppose i don't have to take part if i don't want to
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#229295 - 02/16/06 06:23 AM Re: "traditional" & "modern" TKD ... ? [Re: TeK9]
sjon Offline
Smiter of the smited

Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 186
Loc: Spain
Quote:

Sjon has some good ideas it looks like. Stuff that probably wouldn't apply to TKD but definetly to okinawan forms




To the TKD forms too, since most of them consist of entire passages directly copied from the Okinawan forms or only slightly altered, plus new passages using similar concepts.
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#229296 - 02/16/06 12:26 PM Re: "traditional" & "modern" TKD ... ? [Re: Dereck]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Quote:

I still prefer to call them "traditional" Taekwondo or "sport" Taekwondo. Traditional of course has more bases in self defense, forms, etc. that also includes sparring. Sport of course has more emphasis on sparring and olympic competition. I am WTF but we are "traditional" not "sport". Not all WTF organizations are sport. AND not all ITF are traditional.




I think if you call one traditional the other should be called modern, because thse who practice this style of TKD do not necessarily have to compete. Nor is it required of them. Modern would be a better term meaning a style that emphasises sparring. It just so happends this form of sparring became extremely popular like judo.
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#229297 - 02/16/06 12:32 PM Re: "traditional" & "modern" TKD ... ? [Re: VDJ]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
ďI agree with alot of what you say as well as that MANY of the techniques are the same. But there are different styles of TKD as there are different styles of karate. ITF practices the Chang Hon style, WTF the Kukki style. Their stances are different (a front stance in Kukki is much longer and deeper than in Chang Hon). This maybe a Picyune example but it is one that comes to mind, Then there is the sine wave, unique to Chang Hon and not accepted by Kukki. I don't have time to get into much more, but to say that the only thing that separates them is their sparring rules and patterns is incorrect, there are others as there are in the Japanese & Chinese styles. But there are many things that tie them together as well.

VDJĒ

Okay I think I pretty much agree on this entire statement which VDJ makes which kind of confuses me because weíve had some very long post between us these last 2 months going back and forth on what I thought were two different point of views. My only question I can even think of right now is, perhaps you arenít feeling well and maybe the above statement is some sort of typo? LoL kidding. Honestly Iím a bit confused. Exactly what donít we agree on? Because I know there was something.

-Tek
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
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#229298 - 02/16/06 01:23 PM Re: "traditional" & "modern" TKD ... ? [Re: TeK9]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
hi Tek, me old kindey bean.

im unsure Tek if your comparing the very earliest TKD with the very latest TKD.
or
saying the WFT you practice is 'modern' compared to the ITF or other WTF or other organisations.
i think thats were my confusion comes in.
if its comparing earliest with the latest then i can see because everything progresses.though i dont know what the earliest did compared to what i do so cant compare.i cant compare how id respond to a punch if i did it that way...because i dont know.so cant say if it was useles or not

i think your putting to many things in boxes .taking your view of your training and saying thats what every 'traditional' person does.
the art side has progressed too.not just the sparring side.individual instructors change things.they have their views,their interpretations.its too diverse to box in so easy.
if i went by your thinking..i dont know what id be.'traditional or modern'?.
its like you say ITF does sine wave.not all do.i dont.its hip twist with any natural rise or fall.in my organisation no one sine waves that iv seen.
its impossible to lump things like that.
its dangerouse in all walks of life to do so in my opinion.
you cant say a ''chinese guy robed me'' so ''all chinese are robbers''.

its like you talk of 'traditional' being modified....maybe your technique was wrong before.maybe you didnt understand.
where i train my instructor states why your hip goes that way..why your hands are doing that.id suggest if your 'traditional' training meant it didnt work,maybe your doing it wrong.or not progressed enough yet.
if your hands are doing something that wont make it work..why do it.?that technique could be wrong.because you do something a certain way and say its traditional doesnt mean everyone does.
its like a low grade doing a knife handblock....,its not blocking anything..its like they just do because theyv been told you....if their not corrected.traditional TKD wont work..its crap.well no..its their technique.

TKD is young generaly and so can change.its founder was alive recently so has changed.every aspect of it can change.

its insulting that youd presume you know how i train and would class it as useless and outdated(yes iv used it) because i call my art side 'traditional' and the sparring side sport.
i THINK i can see where your coming from...in which case al TKD today ..ITF or WTF has progressed in which case we are all modern.....if someones TKD and it doesnt work or seems useless i argue its THIER technique not that its 'traditional'.

jeez thats long .lol
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#229299 - 02/16/06 02:29 PM Re: "traditional" & "modern" TKD ... ? [Re: matxtx]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Matxtx

I'm not entirely sure what your trying to say. But I think I can clear up some of your issues with me.

I have never said that Traditional TKD is useless and outdated.

The reason why I refer to ITF and tang soo do Moo duk kwan traditional styles of TKD is because they are just that. They are what used to be referred to as Korean Karate. The reason is because the techniques and even the forms themselves were taken from Japanese karate. You can see the shotokan influence in them. In fact many of the Korean Masters had been black belts in shotokan karate, which at that time was considered modern karate.

I do not refer to sport as a style, sport is sport its competition. What I do refer to is the style of TKD which emphasizes sparring. Not everyone who spars competes.

Now people say there is no such thing as traditional style and what I refer to as modern style, well I beg to differ. The difference is as clear as jujitsu, judo, Brazilian jujitsu. Same art but each style emphasizes different aspects. They focus on different area of training.

I have never judged one art and said it was better than another. I have claimed that I prefer my modern kicks better than the way I used to perform them. But thatís just personal preference.

Now I rarely ever go by organization unless I just am generalizing, but we all generalize because itís easier to make a point. When I generalize it is usually because I am having a post to post conversation with a select group of individuals who understand what I mean and will not nick pick every single sentence just to get one up on me. They give me benefit of the doubt.

I cannot say that every WTF and ITF school is the same world wide. As I have said before these are organizations which anyone who pays an annual fee may become apart of.

Modern TKD to me executes kicks differently than traditional. I have stated different kicks in many other post so I will not do so here. Also when I was trying to convince those who place great emphasis on form/poomses/hyungs lots of people claim the form is what makes the style. So to these folks I said well modern TKD practices Taeguk forms so according to their criteria that makes them a different style. But everyone knows were I stand with TKD forms, I find them to be useless. But everyone knows thatís just my opinion. And many have been graceful enough to accept it and have tried to illustrate how they see forms. Not to convert me but to show a different perspective.

I agree with you that it is a dangerous thing to lump things together and generalize, but in this case I am neither hurting nor threatening anyone.

Gen Choi. Was not the founder of TKD, he merely named it. The art itself is represented by techniques and philosophy. Two elements that have always been around. He merely thought of a name. I am sure he added different things, like different methods of practice, but thatís something each individual instructor does.
When Master Choi thought of the name TKD is did it amongst other masters, he wasn't grand master he was elected head of some organization. Which if you want to know about this stuff talk to VDJ he's got the info on it, it'll make you go crazy on how much he knows about TKD history.

I donít think one style is better than another. Iíve had the benefit of being a practitioner of both styles. Both styles have the same techniques, some styles perform them slightly different, some may have taken their method of performing them from other schools and still remain Traditional even though they now perform them the same way modern styles do. The lines are getting blurry because everyone borrows from everyone. But still it is nice to say we can organize it if we wanted to. At least for the sake of discussion.

The students who I train are taught with a mixture of both styles. Enough time is spent on learning plenty of hand techniques, basic self defense, proper form execution for belt advancement, and plenty of kicking combination for sparring purposes. However, there is also that extra curricular activity known as competition. Here is where we add fancy kicks, and students know these are just for sport and not real self defense.


-Tek
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#229300 - 02/16/06 03:37 PM Re: "traditional" & "modern" TKD ... ? [Re: TeK9]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Quote:

Now people say there is no such thing as traditional style and what I refer to as modern style, well I beg to differ. The difference is as clear as jujitsu, judo, Brazilian jujitsu. Same art but each style emphasizes different aspects. They focus on different area of training.




I wouldn't say these are they same art. Jujitsu is were it all started and Judo was derived from it by taking out aspects to make it less dangerous. Brazilian Jujitsu is closer to Judo then Jujitsu but includes so much more to make it something different. Each over time have evolved into their own art. Yes I will agree then share many common things and it is easy to train in each if you know one or the other, but the same they are not. That would be like saying Karate, Kung Fu, Taekwondo and many others are the same as they kick, punch and block. Many martial arts may have some resemblance to another or have history in the other but they are certainly different and have evolved as their own styles.


Quote:

So to these folks I said well modern TKD practices Taeguk forms so according to their criteria that makes them a different style.




I'm not sure I interpreted this right TeK so forgive me if I didn't. I am WTF and we do practice Taegeuk forms. We practice a lot of traditional stuff and we do sport spar as well as self defense train/spar or MMA train/spar. How would one "label" us? We are traditional. We are sport. We are modern (with the way we think and train). It is hard to "label" or "box" up Taekwondo, as I'm sure this is prevelant in other martial arts. We are a little bit of each which I'm assuming most of us are. I think that I will just be Taekwondo ... no modern, no traditional, no sport ... just Taekwondo. The name may be modern and they way we think and train, traditional methods may be trained, sport may be prevelant in the system ... and so much more ... so Taekwondo it is.
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#229301 - 02/16/06 04:09 PM Re: "traditional" & "modern" TKD ... ? [Re: Dereck]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Dereck

I see the term Taekwondo as a gernerlization. The same way I see kung fu, karate, jujutsu.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#229302 - 02/16/06 04:13 PM Re: "traditional" & "modern" TKD ... ? [Re: TeK9]
TimBlack Offline
Exalted

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 1403
Loc: UK, Brighton
But isn't the term 'modern' or 'traditional' also a generalisation? As Dereck says, no schools adhere strictly to your criteria for modernity of tradition; can we then take the distinction as a clear one, or rather a sliding scale between various different factors?
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#229303 - 02/16/06 05:02 PM Re: "traditional" & "modern" TKD ... ? [Re: TimBlack]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Quote:

Gen Choi. Was not the founder of TKD, he merely named it.




I was under the impression the General was founder of Chang Hon TKD. The name being his nom de plume, meaning 'blue cottage'.

I am still unhappy about the idea of 'traditional' and 'modern' when referring to something only 50 years old. How long does it take to make a tradition?

As ITF Chang Hon has developed the notion of 'sine wave' in the last 15 years or so, doesn't that make it more modern than Kukki, which doesn't recognise it?

By this reckoning, what you refer to as 'trad' TKD is now 'modern'.


Edited by trevek (02/16/06 05:03 PM)
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