Gentlemen, before tis degenerate into a pi??ing contest or technique A vs. counter-techniqe Y, let me try to make my point more clearly. I do not feel that I need to train in many disciplines like many of you proposed. If you a train in traditional Okinawan karate, such as Kobayashi Shorin-Ryu particularly the shorinkan branch, long enough,you will discover that it is complete. Our katas have the same arm bars,locks and throws and other tactics that you grapplers boast about and mistakenly thought are unique only to the so-called grappling arts. Initially,Okinawan karate was not a striking art but a grappling art.

JKogas, I do not wish to go into a specific discussion of measures and counter-measures, because we can discuss it endlessly. Without being too specific, I will control you first by striking you to temporarily stun you, throw you, grab you, tear your muscles,and lock you down when you hit the ground. If and when the techniques are executed with proper timing and body position, you will go to the ground, and I will stay on my feet.

mikelw,
You asked: "Why ask when you know the answer is that you can't?" Well, guess what, just because you do not have the answer, it does not mean the answer does not exist.

bjjskn,
If he takes me to the ground and I end up in the bottom, it is because he is a better fighter than I am, but that does not mean I cannot defeat him.

If you notice I make a distinction between traditional Okinawan karate, more specifically Kobayashi Shorin-ryu, and Japanese karate, because I am speaking purely about training in Kobayashi Shorin-Ryu and not its derivatives.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ogoun:
I do not feel that I need to train in many disciplines like many of you proposed. ... Our katas have the same arm bars,locks and throws and other tactics that you grapplers boast about and mistakenly thought are unique only to the so-called grappling arts. Initially,Okinawan karate was not a striking art but a grappling art.
B][/QUOTE]


You may not have to train in all sorts of skills to defend yourself. I agree in principle that being very good at a few techniques is better than barely learning a wide variety.

However, in my experience, fighting an imaginary opponent(like in kata) is dramatically different than when someone is actually resisting.

I've enjoyed doing kata over the years, but I learn the effective techniques - and the risks of ineffective techniques when someone is resisting - whether striking or grappling. Kata can be a tool, but I definitely think it at best can only be part of training (assuming effective self defence is part of your goal).

As for Okinawan karate originally being a "grappling art" ... who cares? I don't think anyone would consider it one now. Besides, just because it has armlocks in the katas doesn't mean squat. I doubt any grappling art can be effectively practiced without any opponent - even if they aren't even resisting. (A resisting opponent also tests the reality of the stiking arts as well).

Just my biased oppinion.

Martin

Martin,
Why are you assuming Ogoun only practices the techniques w/o resisting opponents? Just becasue Kata is one method of transferring techniques does not mean it is the only method of teaching or practicing. First you learn or discover the move in the kata and then you practice and apply the move with a resisting partner.

[This message has been edited by rookie (edited 04-02-2004).]

Martin,

As Rookie stated, you are making some assumptions, and they are not related to my argument at this point. If you take the sum of my arguments, you would realize that it is implied that at some point a resistant partner would be added. And I do not have to actually break bones or dislocate joints, or draw blood to know that the techniques are effective. If the techniques are applied properly, your feedback is your opponents reactions to the pain he feels through his body position. He will either be compliant or suffer the consequences (e.g. broken bones or dislocated joints.)

When you say TOK no longer has grappling, you miss my point entirely, because you are too busy being antagonistic and myopic. My point is grappling is stil part of Okinawan karate. That's why I went as far as making a distiction between traditional Okinawan karate and its Japanese derivatives.

Perhaps, when you say grappling is no longer part of it, are you referring to Japanese karate? Personally, I am not willing to go that far, because I did not train in Japanese karate long enough to make that critical analysis.

Another thing, just because a technique did not work against a resisting partner does not make it ineffective. It may mean you failed to modify or adapt the technique for that partner. The techniques in the kata are not one size fits all. You must adapt the techniques for the situation. The only way to adapt at will is to have the basic understanding through the repetition of the kata and its bunkai(applications).

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mikelw:
Why ask when you know the answer is that you can't?

[/QUOTE]

It was a probing question really. I understand the fact that it's hard enough to control a good grappler when you're ON the ground WITH him, lol! Forget about it when you're still standing and he's down. That's not going to happen.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ogoun:
Without being too specific, I will control you first by striking you to temporarily stun you, throw you, grab you, tear your muscles,and lock you down when you hit the ground. If and when the techniques are executed with proper timing and body position, you will go to the ground, and I will stay on my feet.
[/QUOTE]


Right... Gotcha man. I understand that in theory. The problem is that the OTHER guy (grappler, non-grappler, etc) generally has a little something to say about all that.

-John

John,
I agree with you. The level of difficulty increases with the level of experience of the opponent, regardless of his background. Any fighter well versed in the techniques of his arts may thwart your techniques.

The point I want to make is that there are styles of karate that can stand on its own. If you are properly trained in a traditional Okinawan Karate sytem, you do not need to cross-trained.