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#228742 - 02/08/06 05:33 PM Re: Songahm system of TKD [Re: TeK9]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1674
Quote:

The reason why I created this thread, was because I found online a TKD organization which takes what seems a logical approach when introducing, teaching and reinforcing new techniques to its students.

It is very similar to a kenpo school I know of which is ran by 2 kenpoist who were students of Rick Alemany. Rather than using some solo form which has no real combat usefulness. They focus on modern day self defense techniques.

It's a shame I have to point this out but what I mean by modern day self defense techniques are situations you would find yourself in this day and age in. I mean no longer are you going to be raided y attacking horsemen correct? So there isn't any value in learning how to block a spear. You would do better prepairing for situations involving the subways, or sidewalk encounters or being mugged at the bus stop. No longer do we need to learn how to defend against out dated weapons, weapons that cant even be legally carried out in the street for obvious reasons. No my friends it it better to prepare for knife and club attacks.

There are forms practiced that have no modern day combat applicaton what so ever. Then there are those which lack the realness of combat, and those created for aesthetic purposes. Now no point in arguing over who see's what and how the forms should be interpretated. I like simplicity. And believe that in a self defense situation it is what works best.

The instructors I know approach kenpo with a modern outlook. The teach thier self defense, stand ups, clubs, covers, front and back grab techniques. For those of you TKDist, these techniques just mean self defense and step sparring.

Anyway these kenpoist have thier students practice in partners similar to TKD step sparring. Instead of teacing thier children some mystical impractical form/kata/poomse they have thier students combine thier scenerios (pre-arranged forms aka step sparring) to be practiced as one big form. This way they are practicing solo forms the way they would actually use thier techniques in real life situations. Now doesn't that seem more practical? There are those who would say yes, then there are those closed minded.

There are those who believe this is a sham, that these guys are not teaching an "art" forgive me if I am wrong but when we refer to Oriental martial arts doesn't the "Art" refer to "the way","do", or "tao". When refering to oriental MA are we not talking about a unique set of combat systems that combine fighting techniques with philosophy. This was my understanding of the Asian martial arts.

It seems some of you only see Martial arts as any method or means of survival or just a means to an end.

I recal one of my old kenpo instructors from a previous kenpo school judgeing and criticizing these younger kenpoist who teach with a new apporach. He said "they are not teaching the art" I suppose what he meant by art was just aesthetics. And to think this guy has the title of Great Grandmaster...Sounded like jealousy to me.





Again,

I am not disputing that the philosophy songham adheres to is bad. What I am saying is that it is not what I have observed in thier schools. I have been in multiple locations thru out the country, and the typival scene is an overwhelmed instructor chasing after a bunch of elementary school aged kids.We all know that the major populace of most martial art schools is childeren. The songam schools cater to them, ie: Karate for Kids ! You do not have to point anything out to me Tek, I agree with some of the things you say, but seem to disagree with the majority of what you say. Forms for example, you believe that the older chang hon forms and kukki poomses have no modern day application, not true. Yul Guk for example, the very first move in itself is a self defense that can break a bear hug from behind. There is a wrist release in Do San and the X block which is a very common technique for knife defense (that is used by modern day LEO's BTW) in Chun Gun and Chung Jang. Stick blocks that can be applicable in a club attack. Now do they get performed EXACTLY as they do in a pattern ? Probably not, but I'm pretty certain with the adrenaline pumping they wouldn't get used as taught in ANY martial art, but the foundations are there. Tek, you seem to get flustered just because we don't see it as you do, thats a two way street. I personally think that patterns have a usefulness and self defense is one of them. As I mentioned above, having the right instructor show you makes the difference. Master Weiss really opened my eyes as to their applications, not that my instructor was blind to them, just not as clear as someone elses view, maybe you didn't have the right one with the patterns you learned. It doesn't mean that it's not there, just like reading the songham philosophy on the net means that it really works in the curriculum. I for one haven't seen it displayed at their schools. Maybe I haven't found the right one yet, but I do continue to stop in on them from time to time.

VDJ

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#228743 - 02/08/06 05:35 PM Re: Songahm system of TKD [Re: VDJ]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
VDJ TeK9
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#228744 - 02/08/06 06:49 PM Re: Songahm system of TKD [Re: Dereck]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1674
Quote:

VDJ TeK9





Yeah but it's all good. I haven't enjoyed this kind of debate in a long time (and I like that it sticks to MA's). One of the other boards I used to post at took a real nasty turn and I don't even bother looking at it any more. A real shame that a couple of posters just ruined it. I have to second whoever it was that applauded Tek's arrival, he really has livend up the board, and who knows, maybe there's a topic that we are in total agreement on (although we will probably look like this when it happens , but then we can enjoy some of this as well ).

VDJ

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#228745 - 02/09/06 12:09 AM Re: Songahm system of TKD [Re: VDJ]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Agreed VDJ. I did earlier say he was a welcome addition but possible others had as well. For too long things have been blah here and it is livened up much more which makes me glad to come on here and read. Of course we can't always agree, which is totally okay, but there will be something that we will and possible we can learn something little from one another.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#228746 - 02/09/06 11:31 PM Re: Songahm system of TKD [Re: Dereck]
ziggytkd Offline
Member

Registered: 03/28/05
Posts: 90
Loc: KY USA
Well I must say I like the discussion here. However I jsut want to make one point, which may or may not be welcome. When it comes to the ATA i think the organization is a joke, I do however like the forms, and it's been my experiance that not ALL ATA schools are mcdojangs. I would say most are, but The instructor makes a school what he wants it to be, whether its quality or quantity.

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#228747 - 02/10/06 12:28 PM Re: Songahm system of TKD [Re: TeK9]
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
Hey Tek

I'll admit that I thought your post gave little in the way of information and claimed to be yet another system that perfects people, however when I saw the title below;

Quote:

Eternal Grand Master H.U. Lee




you had to pick me up off the floor from laughing.

I thought I'd heard it all, from great grandmaster, Soke, etc. etc.

But "Eternal Grand Master."

_________________________
John L

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#228748 - 02/10/06 12:46 PM Re: Songahm system of TKD [Re: JohnL]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Dude I don't know the guy, I was just trying to point out the method they use to teach kids. HOw they introduce TKD techniques. I don't konw about their teachers, organizations, titles, belt levels...nothing. I knew some folks were going to focus the wrong things, but I hoped many would look past the rediculous titles and organization politics and really see what I was trying to point out.

But I'm staring to think this site forum isn't really that serious about it's art. I mean there are some cats in here who have really good things to say, and I don't really agree with them, but at least I have the ability to see where they are coming from what they are trying to say. But this is kind of getting silly.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#228749 - 02/10/06 02:58 PM Re: Songahm system of TKD [Re: JohnL]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1674
Quote:

Hey Tek

I'll admit that I thought your post gave little in the way of information and claimed to be yet another system that perfects people, however when I saw the title below;

Quote:

Eternal Grand Master H.U. Lee




you had to pick me up off the floor from laughing.

I thought I'd heard it all, from great grandmaster, Soke, etc. etc.

But "Eternal Grand Master."






G.M Lee was the founder of the ATA. After he passed away several years ago, some senior members bestowed the title "Eternal" unto him as a type of memorial to him. He did not give it to himself like some of the 20 something y/o's out there who think they created some new art and are now G.M.'s because they added some gymnastic move to a pattern. I'm not saying that I agree with it, just that is how the title came to be.

VDJ

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#228750 - 02/10/06 03:45 PM Re: Songahm system of TKD [Re: TeK9]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1674
Quote:

Hi everyone

For the many of you that have read my posts, you know that I am not a big believer in forms training. I personally believe that there are better methods that can be used which are more beneficial to students.
Some of you have been kindly and respectfully suggested that perhaps the reason I do not appreciate forms is because I do not completely understand their hidden meaning or application towards self defense.
I on the other hand have given an examples of a different method of teaching. Such has combining your self defense and step sparrings sets to form a bigger solo set form. For instance if you take 6-7 step sparring sets you could combine them and create a solo form based on realistic moves which you already practice with a partner. However, I have come across a system of TKD which has based thier forms and techniques based around their schools curriculum. Similar to what I have suggested in my earlier posings.

"The "Songahm Star" is the pattern that is formed on the ground if all 18 forms of the Songahm system are completed. In a perfect Songahm Star, the distance from the center point of the star to the top point is nine feet ("feet" being the student's foot length). The total distance from the top point to the bottom point equals 18 feet, representing the number of forms in the Songahm system.

"Martial Art" is a broad term encompassing the many styles of physical discipline (fighting) arts that have been developed over the centuries. To say that the style of Songahm Taekwondo is just another "martial art" would be an oversimplified explanation of the world's largest centrally administered martial art. This system of teaching and training is unequaled in the martial arts community.

During its early years, the ATA used the Chahng-hun style of forms (also used by the International Taekwondo Federation). But although this style was widely accepted in the Taekwondo community, Eternal Grand Master H.U. Lee felt that its forms did not accurately reflect Taekwondo -- particularly the strength and beauty of Taekwondo kicking techniques. As a result, he believed the forms contributed little to the Taekwondo curriculum. For example, white belts were expected to know front kicks and side kicks, but no front kick appeared until the third (yellow belt) form, and there was no side kick until the form after that!

From 1983 to 1990, Eternal Grand Master introduced the eighteen Songahm forms. These forms are part of a fully-integrated curriculum, in which everything a student learns reinforces everything else. The forms contain all or nearly all of the techniques that students are expected to know at each rank, the one-step sparring segments complement the forms, and all of these patterns lead logically to the movements required for each succeeding rank.

The Songahm curriculum facilitates a smooth progression from one rank to the next, so that students who begin Taekwondo feeling they'll never be able to do a simple block (for example) suddenly find themselves a few years later doing 360-degree jumping kicks with ease.

Songahm Taekwondo also focuses on personal development of the mind and body. To say it is just self-defense would be to lose most of the valuable ideas and philosophy behind this ancient art.

The heightened capacity for self-defense resulting from our Taekwondo is really a fringe benefit that is gained by dedicating one's self to the values, philosophy and training of Songahm Taekwondo. When learning, a student is in a true, traditional Taekwondo class, focusing not just on the physical but also on discipline, honor, self-control, respect, courtesy, perseverance and loyalty.

A beginner does not focus on being a skilled martial artist within a month or two, as a strong foundation in Taekwondo must be built first. Trying to advance beyond your level without proper guidance is like building a house on concrete that has not dried. Though the house may still stand, the foundation would not be as strong and the appearance of the house may not be as presentable.

The ATA and its affiliated organizations help build a strong foundation of Songahm Taekwondo in each of its members, a foundation from which advancement in both the martial art (mind and body) and in self defense can be built and added on to in perpetuity."





Tek,

I am responding to your last post but wanted to put your original one with my response. Guy, the reason your not getting the responses you want is due to your delviery. I have mentioned to you time and again how you post something as factual or like you have had a first hand experience and then it comes to the surface that you don't. This thread is a perfect example of what I mean. Instead of starting the thread like this :

'I was talking with a few people I know who train in the Songham style of TKD and their training methods began to pique my curiosity. So I had visited the Songham website, and this is what I learned about their training philosophy".

Instead you post the way that you did above making like you have seen this method and find it to be a more effective way of training, when in fact you never did (yes I am aware that you were very upfront about never seeing it). You need to work on how you present things (I probably wouldn't seem to be so adversarial toward your posts if I found them to be presented better). I am certain that plenty of the posters on this board take their art very seriously, I also believe that there are more adolesents and very young adults who post here and haven't had the same life experiences that us "Older" folks have had. I have to say, this is the best board I have come across in a very long time, people are very respectful for the most part. As I mentioned above, I stopped going to another board due to just a few posters who were very rude and arrogant and hardly discussed the MA's. It is also very poorly moderated. Hang in there. You have made a fine contribution to this board. Just need some smoothing out around the edges (of course, I'm sure that some may think that of me as well).

VDJ

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#228751 - 02/10/06 04:24 PM Re: Songahm system of TKD [Re: VDJ]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Quote:

(of course, I'm sure that some may think that of me as well.)




Both of you are excellent additions to this forum and enjoy reading your posts. You make this forum more exciting and have both different ideas that seem to conflict more then anything else but I do see some similarities as well. Bravo for you both.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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