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#227510 - 02/02/06 09:56 AM WTF hand protectors -> more punching?
bin Offline
Member

Registered: 01/04/06
Posts: 169
Loc: NJ, USA
WTf has approved the new hand protectors. www.wtf.org

do you think that the intro. of these hand gear, shorter rounds, and easier recognition of punch points will lead to more punching in wtf matches?

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#227511 - 02/02/06 11:30 AM Re: WTF hand protectors -> more punching? [Re: bin]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1674
Quote:

WTf has approved the new hand protectors. www.wtf.org

do you think that the intro. of these hand gear, shorter rounds, and easier recognition of punch points will lead to more punching in wtf matches?




Thats what they say but I doubt it for right now. It is my understanding that they now have decided to include the shoulder as part of the "Head' target and if you punch it, points will be deducted as though you punched the head I know this is a new rule change within the AAU which is a class B member of TKDUSA, the NGB for the WTF in the USA. I don't understand why they are now allowing kicks to the back as legal, but are making the target area for punches smaller. I think that they should allow hands to the head where ever the helmet covers. Even if they don't want to score it, it can help set up a nice kick for a KO. They need to make it more exciting. Funny thing is, the better the athelete, the more boring the matches become. I have seen qualifiers that are kick butt with excitement and then Steven Lopez's Gold medal match was a big snoozefest (and the man is an absolute machine in olympic sparring). JMHO !

VDJ

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#227512 - 02/02/06 03:32 PM Re: WTF hand protectors -> more punching? [Re: VDJ]
Subedei Offline
Member

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 479
I've never understood why on earth, in a point based system, it is necessary to remove the head as a valid target. We strike to the head in sparring all the time without helmets or gloves to no ill effect. It's the judges duty in competition to prevent the intentional causing of injury in sparring which is definitally quite possibly no matter how much padding they use. Besides, the naked foot is already allowed full force contact with the head in many tournaments - that's definitally more dangerous in my book.

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#227513 - 02/02/06 03:42 PM Re: WTF hand protectors -> more punching? [Re: Subedei]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
I agree with a lot of what you said. This comment I'd like to discuss:

Quote:

Besides, the naked foot is already allowed full force contact with the head in many tournaments - that's definitally more dangerous in my book.




Again I agree the foot can do a lot more damage but unlike the hands you cannot throw multiple shots to the head with your feet. I could jab your head continually causing damage and then come across with a power hand. If you tried multiple shots to my head with your foot I would simple run you over and knock you down. Hands are more easily accessable to your face which is why I think they don't want this. Plus you want to see kicks and not a boxing match.

I understand that ITF allows hands to the head but many, not all, are point sparring and each person is not trying to knock the other out ... or at least most aren't.

One other point. It takes a lot more skill, timing and practice to get a good head shot in with your foot. Anybody can throw their hands in your face ... not everybody can effectively kick you in the head.

Just my opinion.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#227514 - 02/02/06 03:55 PM Re: WTF hand protectors -> more punching? [Re: Dereck]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
As usual Derick very good point.

"The Competition rules call for points to be awarded for strikes with a properly clenched fist (known as “Parunjumok” or “Junggwon”). however, in recent years such points have not traditionally been awarded by judges and referees, despite the rule in effect. It is recommended to abolish this tradition, so that contestants delivering effective and legal fist techniques are awarded points. the primary rationale for what is essentially a reinforcement of an existing policy is that fist techniques are an essential, and traditional, component of Taekwondo. Moreover, they add to the enjoyment and attraction of the sport."

Get ready all you boxers, hard body shots will now counted. Let's get ready to rumble.

On a personal note, I think these body shots are going to be used more by newbs new to the sport aspect. And also by those who attend schools associated with the WTF who do not have qualified instuctors to teach them continuous sparring strategy.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#227515 - 02/02/06 09:06 PM Re: WTF hand protectors -> more punching? [Re: TeK9]
jamestkdkungfu Offline
Member

Registered: 01/28/06
Posts: 113
I agree I have fought people (we get like two promotions a year at my school)who my belt rank blue and they tried to punch me to death and i simply block and counter-roundhoused them over and over they just didnt get it wasnt working (slow kids playin...)I have been training two years and still dont have red *sigh*

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#227516 - 02/02/06 09:45 PM Re: WTF hand protectors -> more punching? [Re: jamestkdkungfu]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1674
Quote:

I agree I have fought people (we get like two promotions a year at my school)who my belt rank blue and they tried to punch me to death and i simply block and counter-roundhoused them over and over they just didnt get it wasnt working (slow kids playin...)I have been training two years and still dont have red *sigh*




I disagree ! One of the primary things that my instructor would do would be a hard reverse punch to the chest as they charged. Most did not expect it, couldn't handle the hit (she has a tremendously powerful punch), and then it helped set up a nice KO kick (all she had to do was flynch the punch, they would react an open the head up to be hit). Used this strategy that took her to 3 international championships. The Koreans were the ones that couldn't take the punch the most.

VDJ

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#227517 - 02/02/06 09:47 PM Re: WTF hand protectors -> more punching? [Re: Dereck]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1674
Quote:

I agree with a lot of what you said. This comment I'd like to discuss:

Quote:

Besides, the naked foot is already allowed full force contact with the head in many tournaments - that's definitally more dangerous in my book.




Again I agree the foot can do a lot more damage but unlike the hands you cannot throw multiple shots to the head with your feet. I could jab your head continually causing damage and then come across with a power hand. If you tried multiple shots to my head with your foot I would simple run you over and knock you down. Hands are more easily accessable to your face which is why I think they don't want this. Plus you want to see kicks and not a boxing match.

I understand that ITF allows hands to the head but many, not all, are point sparring and each person is not trying to knock the other out ... or at least most aren't.

One other point. It takes a lot more skill, timing and practice to get a good head shot in with your foot. Anybody can throw their hands in your face ... not everybody can effectively kick you in the head.

Just my opinion.




ITF sparring has been continuous for sometime now !

VDJ

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#227518 - 02/03/06 01:42 AM Re: WTF hand protectors -> more punching? [Re: VDJ]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
I'm not sure what you meant VDJ? Are you referring to point sparring or hands to the face?

I do understand the hands to the face but for the poinnt sparring I am well aware that there are many schools that are full contact, as I remember quite some time back you provided a video that I enjoyed. However I still know of many ITF organizations that have not changed and still point spar. As I am aware of quite a few Karate organizations that point spar.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#227519 - 02/03/06 01:53 AM Re: WTF hand protectors -> more punching? [Re: TeK9]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Quote:

Get ready all you boxers, hard body shots will now counted. Let's get ready to rumble.




Hey TeK9. From the beginning of my training we have always allowed body shots. Of course we were always told that they usually did not count for sport sparring "unless" they were devastating enough. But we were trained them none the less as they provided you opportunities to make space to kick and it kept you busy in the judges eyes. In fact my first tournament I maybe only kicked 3 times and punched "none stop". I was so frightened and this was the only thing I could remember. I was a white belt fighting a yellow/green belt and I gave him no space to kick me. He did kick me once in the throat which made my hands numb ... but when the match was restarted I bowled him over repeatedly and thundered him none stop. At the end however I was drained which showed in my second match against a much more technical green belt that was way out of my league for experience. I ended up winning the first match as I was the most aggressive ... but looking back I would say it was a pitiful win. People however thought I came from a boxing background ... nope ... just fear baby ... fear of getting hit.

I think this is another reason why the WTF did not allow so much for punches as they did not want it to be a brawl. At least in the "point style sparring" of the ITF or some Karate organizations (and other styles), it is a lot more control hits that the judges are looking for. How that reflects on the full contact ITF organizations I could not say but even watching some of those videos they are mostly using kicks and the punches still seem controlled and pulled back at the end. This however is only my interpretation and I am by no means an authority of this.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#227520 - 02/03/06 03:46 AM Re: WTF hand protectors -> more punching? [Re: Dereck]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Funny story Dereck, as I said newbs always punch, it's a natural reaction. That or freeze up and take the hits.

The quote on my previous post was from the WTF website and how they are going to handle punches. They've always aloud them but most judges never honored the punches; I suppose they are going to train them to catch these punches.

As far as ITF sparring is concerned I don’t know much about their method of sparring. I do know it's more controlled; although VDJ has posted several times that some ITF schools have full contact continuous sparring.

I can only respond from what I know of open tournaments in which all styles’ compete with one another, usually however, you do not see any Olympic style sparring TKDer's here, Because there is a discrimination against kicks. SO WTF TKDer's usually don’t do well at these tourneys.

However, you do see a lot of traditional TKD now whether they are ITF associated or not doesn't really matter...But you see them spar along with other styles. Point sparring to me is like a game of tag, in fact it's probably even safer, because all you have to do is make it seem like your technique is going to hit and sometimes the referee will stop you and award you a point. This is why WTF TKDer's don’t do well, because these guys are usually into full contact sparring, and if they kick a round kick to the stomach and land, they could be penalized for excess force or if they land a round kick to the stomach but the other competitor did a flying back fist and grazed the face of the kicker, points would be awarded not to the kicker but to the competitor who through the back fist, because he landed first. Totally unfair. This happened to me. Live and learn man.

Now I've seen the teenage and adult black belts go at it, now these guys know nothing about control, these jokers go full contact and literally start to brawl, I mean it pretty much turns into a boxing match. And I believe this is the reason why WTF has kept Olympic style sparring purely kicks, because its aesthetically pleasing and shows how brilliant and beautiful the arts kicks are and it is kept unique.'

Just as boxing is kept strictly no kicks allowed. It is so not to ruin the aesthetics to its spectators. It is kept organized. Otherwise it would suffer the fate of kickboxing.

Personally I think the real reason Professional Olympic TKD sparring is dull to watch is not because of the techniques and their limits. It is because the Olympics are it, it’s the spot to be in, and it’s the pivotal moment. It’s no longer just about combat, 2 competitors scoring points on one another; it is now about strategy and not just about skill superiority. It becomes more about letting the clock run out, stalling for time. This is where the action pauses, where you see one competitor frantically trying to advance on the other and the one with the lead score is running around the ring letting time run out. This is one of the major issues that should be addressed.


-Tek
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#227521 - 02/03/06 06:26 AM Re: WTF hand protectors -> more punching? [Re: TeK9]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1674
Dereck & Tek,

I don't know if I'm clear enough (though I thought I had been). When I say that the ITF has continuous sparring, I mean that it is continuous as they don't stop to award the point, it scores and contiues on just like olympic, although the scoring criteria is different. They still need to show control and lighter contact with blows to the head.

HOWEVER ! There have been some venues in which they have had full contact KO matches (as like the video I posted some months ago and it's a shame that the video can't be brought up again). But what I am getting at when I say that they are continuous is that they no longer do the stop point. When you come right down to it, all sparring matches are point matches, it's how we decide the winner. As I thought that the video we are refering to showed, you can allow hands to the head, see some great kicks in which KO's occured and kept the integrity of the match as it did not look like a kick boxing match.

VDJ

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#227522 - 02/03/06 08:54 AM Re: WTF hand protectors -> more punching? [Re: VDJ]
bin Offline
Member

Registered: 01/04/06
Posts: 169
Loc: NJ, USA
Quote:

The Koreans were the ones that couldn't take the punch the most.

VDJ




Are you kidding me, man? Are you implying Korean TKD people are worse punchers than other people? We're just naturally inferior punchers? Think before you say something.

Also, let's get back on topic here. A lot of you are talking about stuff that has nothing to do with the original post. What do you think about the development of hand tech in WTF tkd.


Edited by Dereck (02/03/06 04:40 PM)

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#227523 - 02/03/06 11:12 AM Re: WTF hand protectors -> more punching? [Re: VDJ]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Quote:

Dereck & Tek,

I don't know if I'm clear enough (though I thought I had been). When I say that the ITF has continuous sparring, I mean that it is continuous as they don't stop to award the point, it scores and contiues on just like olympic, although the scoring criteria is different. They still need to show control and lighter contact with blows to the head.




VDJ, I wasn't sure what you meant about continually but now I do and I actually assumed so. I did not at anytime figure if was "stop point sparring", so please don't read that into my posts. From the ITF and WTF matches I have seen, they were all based on points and were continually. The only difference was that ITF was not full contact where as WTF was. However in the WTF they could win by knockout where as in the ITF they could not.

Now with that being said, I enjoyed the video that you put up months ago and that was one that I was referring to in my post. This was full contact ITF and this impressed me and was the first of this type I had seen. My perception though was the punches were still controlled and were not boxer style punches. There were not going for the KO by punches but by kicking ... which all Taekwondos are famous for.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#227524 - 02/03/06 12:12 PM Re: WTF hand protectors -> more punching? [Re: bin]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1674
Quote:

Quote:

The Koreans were the ones that couldn't take the punch the most.

VDJ




Are you kidding me, man? Are you implying Korean TKD people are worse punchers than other people? We're just naturally inferior punchers? Think before you say something.

Also, let's get back on topic here. A lot of you are talking about stuff that has nothing to do with the original post. What do you think about the development of hand tech in WTF tkd.




Read my post again, you are misunderstanding what I am saying. I am saying that it was my instructors experience in her competition days that they could not handle getting hit with the punch, NOT that they were "inferior" in delivering the technique. They would expect her to just attack with the kicks and she thru them off by getting inside and punching hard ! She also had another advantage as to typically being bigger and heavier (always on the high end of the weight class)! I meant no offense, but I think that you interpreted what I said incorrectly.

VDJ


Edited by Dereck (02/03/06 01:57 PM)

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#227525 - 02/03/06 08:36 PM Re: WTF hand protectors -> more punching? [Re: bin]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
I'm dont think it's going to improve the sport. Maybe it will get some of those jealous people from ofther MA off our backs, because of the lack of punches. But screw them...we shouldn't bend to thier petty comments. WTF TKD sparring has seperated itself from all other arts, it's uniqueness is what made it shine and what has made TKD one of the most famous of sports.
Kicks are done at mid and long range. I have seen punches done at mid range and they just dont work well when punching to the chest, they work good when aiming for the face, because it doesn't take much to knokc back the opponents head, however, before the rule was, if it didn't move the body it would not receive a point. And although many boxers like artist would punch thier little hearts off they would stil score very few points. Besides the only punch that scored before was a straight rear arm punch. Will the WTF score upper cuts? I mean this punch is done inclose and is actually better suited for body shots.

I think changing the colors on the uniforms is a good idea, but I'm not so keen on the gloves, some competitors already wear those cloth forearm with thin foams covering the hands. I say we should just stick with these. Perhaps making gloves mandatory is just a play by the WTF to make more money. Now there is something to think about. I mean look how often they change the chest protector, it's one every year, and chest protectors do not come cheap.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#227526 - 02/03/06 09:53 PM Re: WTF hand protectors -> more punching? [Re: TeK9]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1674
Tek,

I'm sorry but olympic sparring does not "shine" by any stretch of the imagination ! They need to do something to make it shine. It doesn't HAVE to be punching to the head (but I think it adds more realism). We spent a half hour after class tonight watching some matches on video, some of them were with Steven Lopez, and they were all snooze fests. BOUNCE, BOUNCE, SWITCH FEET, PICK UP LEG SKIP IN, SWITCH FEET, DOUBLE KICK, BOUNCE, BOUNCE, SWITCH FEET. NARABUM KICK BOUNCE, BOUNCE ROUND KICK. The women were much more exciting to watch. If they don't want to allow punches to the head, then MAKE them kick ! Don't wait so long with the bouncing and trying to fake this and that, because this looks like a tag match. They worked hard and long to get it in to the olympics, and it only became a full medal event back at the games in Sydney (when Herb Perez won gold back in "92, it was still a exibition sport). They need to do something, 'cause if they don't, you can probably kiss it goodbye after the 2008 games in China.

VDJ

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#227527 - 02/04/06 01:23 AM Re: WTF hand protectors -> more punching? [Re: VDJ]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
I agree with VDJ ... they are boring matches sometimes. Maybe what they should do is implement something like Pride Fighting does. If nothing is going on or they feel somebody is stalling then yellow card them. Obviously they can't take money from a purse but they sure could take away points. Now with points taken away you have one person who wants to get them back and another that wants to capitalize on it ... now we have action. Action is what is needed so that it is not so boring.

On the other hand you have to understand that some people do not understand the game they are playing. It is a chess match and it involves setting up, fakes and such. But that is still not an excuse for stalling when you have more points waiting for the clock to run down. If they can play that game then you can't get mad at them for it. But change the rules and you can eliminate stuff like this. Hands to the head may not change the dynamics enough to make this exciting ... but then again it could ... but I believe that it will take more than this. Also change some rules and then you have changed the dynamics. BUT with that said I have seen some spectacular matches both in the Olympics and right in my own back yard. It is those that make you stand up and get excited. They are there you just have to look for them to really enjoy Taekwondo for what it is.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#227528 - 02/04/06 05:11 AM Re: WTF hand protectors -> more punching? [Re: Dereck]
dicen Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/06
Posts: 57
Punching to the face is not going to help out TKD sparring. It will just end up cause slap fights with no technique what so ever. That was what it was like back in the 60's and 70's before the rule change to no punching to the face. Plus with the chest protectors the punches to the body don't hurt... that much .. and rarely to they even move the person unless you do a reverse mid punch to the chest while the other person is kicking. And even then its more of a push to get the person off balance and followed with a rear leg round house kick to knock down your opponent.

Problem isn't how to allow scoring of punched but how to force the two combatants to fight. Olympic boxing has this same problem where the winner of the fight runs from the other guy to prevent him from scoring but I believe the referee can penalize the person for runnning away.

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