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#227439 - 02/05/06 08:13 PM Re: Adventures with Forms. [Re: Guy]
andy4 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/25/06
Posts: 53
Hi Guy.

Do you have any bunkia/technique for the kata/forms you practice?

Which forms are you working on?

Any Ch'aun-Fa?

I would be interested in your bunkia.

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#227440 - 02/05/06 10:23 PM Re: Adventures with Forms. [Re: oldman]
Guy Offline
Member

Registered: 10/07/05
Posts: 68
Loc: Indiana USA
Quote:

It is not impossible for people to learn through indepth personal study. Your point seems to be undermined by the fact that both Lee and Dewey sought instruction under respected teachers and recognized institutions. Perhaps your argument would be better made using Abraham Lincoln as a model.




Yes that may be true, but then they went off and did their own thing. Dewey emphasized pragmatism and the use of the scientific method to learn new things. He greatly influenced the philosophy of education in the US. Lee took what Dewey tough and applied it to the kung fu foundation he already learned and evolved his own style. I took Dewey's thought and applied it to the TKD foundation I already learned and went from there and did my own thing with it and I now add the foundation of the Chinese forms where I did the same. My personal fighting style is a combination of Korean and Chinese thought. I donít reject the forms like Lee did because I study them as examples of concepts not individual techniques. The point I was trying to make is Dewey gave the philosophy of education for creating independent creative thought and Lee is an example of the application of that thought to the martial arts. So too are all the advances made in science an example of that same school of thought. And just as Lee and Dewey started out from the teachings of others, so too in the martial art example itís important to first start out learning under a competent instructor to get ones bearings then master your own style. Newton who discovered calculus also said that the reason he sees so far is because he is standing on the shoulders of the giants that went before him. But he did create calculus which is unprecedented.

What undermines your argument is the reality of the two tier educational system and the fact that education system lead to the development of unprecedented advanced in science leading to the development of things like the space shuttle and the personal computer. This could only happen in the US because we have the freedom to think as we please and also because the US is such a new country that there is no tradition being passed down to get locked into like old countries like China and India, or even in Europe. The US is the melting pot of all traditions of the whole world so there is much variety of thought and so one has to think and pick a little from this and a little of that and end up coming up with something brand new. What I said about China is true, they are very good at copying but have a very difficult time creating something new. That is why China wanting to wow the world with the upcoming Olympics had to go to Western architects to design the buildings, and they are awesome. And that is also why people who buy into traditional Chinese thought think you canít learn things on your own because a culture locked into ancient tradition spends more time looking back at the old instead of looking forward towards the new like the US does.

If you have tons of money you can go to the upper tier schools to learn how to think creatively for yourself, or you can read Deweyís book and learn it on your own. But learning how to develop your own marital art goes much farther then the martial arts. Once you know how to teach yourself one thing you will have acquired the skills to learn anything you want. Remember the main thing Dewey was trying to say is that you teach people how to think for themselves through the medium of the subject material that you are studying and once you learn it there you can apply the same skills to anything else. Whether the medium of learning that skill is chemistry, or martial arts, once that skill is learned, it has far reaching effects way beyond the original subject. But if you only try to learn by rote, then you rob your self from learning the skills of independent discovery that can be applied to so many other things, like going into business for your self, and the best you can do is be dependent on others to lead you.

And so while it is a lot of fun being creative and developing your own style but the most important part is that learning your own style gives the opportunity to learn how to think creatively for yourself and that learning that creative thought is much more important then the martial arts. Even in the Bible it is said something like how the reason we worship God and give him power is because he created all that is for no other reason then for the pleasure of creating. And so too do we do the same with creative individuals in that we reward their creativity with wealth, just as we reward Godís creative acts with his worship. In other words what I believe is that learning how to be creative is part of our spiritual development and we are robbing ourselves of that development when we merely learn by rote. That is what I believe. In a Hindu religion called Kashmir Shaivism they even go on to say that the first signs of divinity expressing itself through us is shown by a growing power of creative abilities.

Lincoln was a great man but he didnít use the scientific method, he just used sheer determination. You can use sheer determination to learn the martial arts but you would lack discrimination on how to get the most return out of your efforts, we donít live forever you know.

And so you may do what you like, but I am going to do as I like too, and that is to be creative in all that I do, whether it is writing horoscopes, my music, or the martial arts.

Guy

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#227441 - 02/05/06 10:30 PM Re: Adventures with Forms. [Re: Guy]
JoelM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
Quote:

be creative in all that I do, whether it is writing horoscopes, my music, or the martial arts.

Guy




All things that you make up out of thin air?

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#227442 - 02/05/06 10:31 PM Re: Adventures with Forms. [Re: Guy]
kusojiji Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 648
Loc: kokokokokoko
Quote:

But people in China canít think and learn new things for themselves.




All right. Your trolling/insanity is one thing , but now you are drifting into blatant bigotry and that's not cool. Not at all.
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#227443 - 02/05/06 10:39 PM Re: Adventures with Forms. [Re: Guy]
Fisherman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/16/03
Posts: 1656
Loc: Colorado, USA
If you are satisfied with your level of progress and expertise enough to boast as you do, then good for you. It is impressive that you have the determination and discipline to keep working at getting better.
Do you feel that others here on the forum, (a majority of us here), are waisting our time and money going to classes and learning from teachers? Is there something wrong with the way we decide to learn? Is there something wrong in the way we seek to better our skill level and make progress as martial artists?
_________________________
Chris Haynes

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#227444 - 02/05/06 11:04 PM Re: Adventures with Forms. [Re: Guy]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
What you are discribing is nothing novel. You appear to be a young man who developmentaly is beginning to see that there is a difference between concrete and formal thought processes. You proclaim that you are opperating in the rehlm of the formal but your dogmatism evedences that you are still mired in the concrete. Not a bad place to be, you are just not where you think you are.

Abe Lincoln lacking discretion or decernment? Sheesh.

If I were you I might be more concerned with your black and white thinking and forays into grandiosity.

By the way, did you figure out how to post those pictures yet?

Oh, one other question, Is Miami tropical?

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#227445 - 02/06/06 05:16 AM Re: Adventures with Forms. [Re: oldman]
Guy Offline
Member

Registered: 10/07/05
Posts: 68
Loc: Indiana USA
Quote:

What you are discribing is nothing novel.




Yes I know there is nothing novel about what I am describing but it is to all the people here who are trying to tell me that it is impossible to learn something on their own. And it is to them that I am writing this post to show that people have been learning things on their own for thousands of years. This two tier education system goes way back to Aristotle's time where he describes the difference between the education of a free man and that of a slave. A slave's education he says is just to perform a job. A free mans education is to learn how to think for one's self. Don't try to change the subject.

By the way, I find it flattering that you say I think like a young man but what I am is irrelevant to what I am talking about. Whether I am very young or very old it makes no difference. I see that you do think like an old man and keep straying from the topic and are now grasping at straws just to have something to say against me, even trying to put words in my mouth just to have something to shoot down. Lincoln was not a scientist, he was a politician. Dewey was all about how to teach people how learn new things for themselves. Comparing Lincoln to Dewey is like comparing apples to oranges. I don't think the thoughts of Lincoln would be very helpful to Bruce Lee, but I did see Lee talking about many of Deweyís thoughts because he taught martial arts exactly the way Dewey recommended education should be taught. I have been familiar with Dewey for over 30 years.

I don't know what is growing faster, the icons down at the bottom of the page or my troll entourage. I hope they add an icon that says stick to the subject.

Guy theone.

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#227446 - 02/06/06 08:43 AM Re: Adventures with Forms. [Re: Guy]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
You are confused. I did not compare Dewey to Lincoln. What I said was Dewey and Lee both sought classical educations. I used Lincoln as support for your argument as to the value of the individual educating themselves. Do you have any verification that Lee was ever exposed to the ideas of Dewey? Say perhaps a quote from Lee saying something like" Wowee that Dewey sure is one smart guy". That would help support your premise. On the other hand it is easy to find quotes of Lee quoting Lao tsu or Krishnamurti who were neither western or particularly scientific. Besides none of us ever said anything about a two teired educational system. That seems to be your own peculiar pet peve du juor. Even that is irrelevant to your argument. One can either educate oneself or one can't. No one exsists in a vacuum. Think of it this way, way have you managed to ramble on for a few pages here. It is either mental masterbation and gymnastics or you are here to try to teach us. Aknowlegdeing the first would show a sense of humor and humility. The second proves that you feel we need a teacher i.e ...you. That position would destroy your own arguement.

I'm still waiting to see those pictures. You could use a scientific method to post them or you could just give them to me and I could put them up. I'd be happy to.

Oh..and another thing. I'd be carefull in regard to thetalk about your troll entourage. Everything you say can and will be held against you. Nothing in this court of public opinion needs to be proven beyond a resonable doubt. The standard for evidence is much lower here than in a criminal case.You may find yourself banished to Kuala lampur.

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#227447 - 02/06/06 10:58 AM Re: Adventures with Forms. [Re: oldman]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Guy,
I'm glad I could help post your images. I was not expecting you to send so many. I'll post the rest as fast as I can.

Image Hosted by ImageShack.us

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#227448 - 02/06/06 11:17 AM Re: Adventures with Forms. [Re: oldman]
kusojiji Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 648
Loc: kokokokokoko
LOL!
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