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#227367 - 02/01/06 10:51 PM Flavors of a particular kata
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
What do weapons practitioners make of the generic sentiment/obeservation that classic/traditional weapons kata vary/flavor comparitively little if/when compaired to unarmed kata?

What does that observation mean, assuming on some level it is valid of course? Pick any unarmed kata you can name, and there will be dozens, hundred, thousands of flavors, variations to almost every aspect of said form. Any classic/traditional kobudo kata compairatively speaking has almost none...

What do members think of that observation??? What does it mean? If it is true, why is that the case?!?!

Thoughts ?
J

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#227368 - 02/02/06 12:47 PM Re: Flavors of a particular kata [Re: Ronin1966]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
A guess? Because weapons training was:

a) always for the elite (either family only, small school, or taught to upper students) and subject to tenuous transmission

b) was bypassed during the period that empty hand was promulgated/exported

c) not viewed as an art by most until recently

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#227369 - 02/02/06 11:51 PM Re: Flavors of a particular kata [Re: harlan]
Chatan1979 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/21/05
Posts: 338
Loc: Mahomet , Illinois
actually many traditional kobujutsu katas do have many variations. Just as youll find different forms of Bassai, passai in karate. In kobudo for example, there are (to my knowledge) 6 or more versions of Sushi no Kun. The system that i study practices 2 versions, sho and dai. Sakugawa no kun has just as many versions and we study Sakugawa sho, dai, and ko. The variations, I believe, Exist for the same reasons that we find them in empty handed forms. You just have to do a little research to find the similarities and diferences.
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#227370 - 02/03/06 07:12 PM Re: Flavors of a particular kata [Re: harlan]
Ronin1966 Offline
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Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Harlan:

<<a) always for the elite (either family only, small school, or taught to upper students)

Ok, beautiful

<<b) was bypassed during the period that empty hand was promulgated/exported

Could not have been ~bypassed~ truly that much, check the phone book, the local book stores.... (inventories such as they are....)

<<c) not viewed as an art by most until recently

Interesting idea, how so??? The -do vs. -jutsu issue? The professional warrior argument vs. civilian practioner/instruction maybe? Lots of possible choices which were you suggesting?

J

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#227371 - 02/03/06 07:17 PM Re: Flavors of a particular kata [Re: Chatan1979]
Ronin1966 Offline
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Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Chatan1979:

Chatan yara no sai... interesting form.

<<many traditional kobujutsu katas do have many variations.

Of the type, kind and extreme degrees which their empty handed counterparts do????

<<In kobudo for example, there are (to my knowledge) 6 or more versions of Sushi no Kun.

You disagree with my basic obervation then? Are those variations EXTREME differences which by in large observed are plainly, tangibly Sushi no Kun (Sushi as in raw fish? Odd name if so...)???

J

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#227372 - 02/04/06 08:21 AM Re: Flavors of a particular kata [Re: Ronin1966]
Chatan1979 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/21/05
Posts: 338
Loc: Mahomet , Illinois
Sushi, also sometimes written as shushi, and ive even seen it written as shuji no kun. Yes I would say that a lot of the diferences are very extreme in some of the weapon kata, yet they are refered to by the same name. Some diferences are very minor.
Some weapons kata are related but carry diferent names. There is a theory that Higgionna No Sai and CHatan Yara No Sai used to be one kata. The reason for this is because Higiaonna no Sai ends by throwoing one sai and then Chatan begins with a sai in only one hand. Some research shows that Chatan Yara(or Yara Guwa) and Higaionna , may have learned sai in the same area of china. Like i said this is just one theory that ive been looking into.
Another example would be the bo kata Choun NO Kun, or Kon. Matayoshi kobudo and Yamani ryu kobudo both practice this kata, however there are some diferences in their performance, much like the differences in the Pinan-Heian katas in Karate. The matayoshi version does not use as many Neko Dachis as the yamani ryu version. The general embusen of the katas are nearly identical except for that and a few otehr minor diferences.
So i would have to say that yes i do respectfully disagree with you in the regards that Kobudo katas do not have the diferent flavors as empty hand kata. All the diferent versions of most weapons katas( at least that i have researched) are very similar, however theyre are some that look nothing like each other. Ive seen versions Matsuhiga no Tonfa that look comepletely diferent.HOpe that answers you question.
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#227373 - 02/08/06 10:23 AM Re: Flavors of a particular kata [Re: Chatan1979]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Chatan1979:

<<i do respectfully disagree with you in the regards that Kobudo katas do not have the diferent flavors as empty hand kata.

Ahhhhh.... my error then.

I was not questioning whether there were differences, my INTENDED question was to query what others made of the perception (rightly/wrongly) that the assorted "flavors" which do exist... why they appear far less radical in nature compairatively than what is demonstrated with their empty handed kata ~cousins~?

Why assuming the basic premise is correct, (a giant IF i grant you...) but IF correct, why such raduically different presentations with empty handed kata, yet compairatively none when demonstrating the kobudo kata?

Consider (purely as an example but pick your own Okinawan karate kata) Seisan/hangetsu kata... can be seen dozens of different ways and are expressed radically differently... yet take a bo kata, and even though whether two or a dozen groups/schools relatively speaking you find by comparison virtually NO difference in the manner which they seemingly demonstrate it (ie yet have almost no "similarity" in their empty handed forms).

What do you make of that phenomina?

J

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#227374 - 02/08/06 10:30 AM Re: Flavors of a particular kata [Re: Ronin1966]
Chatan1979 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/21/05
Posts: 338
Loc: Mahomet , Illinois
Ok i think i understand waht your saying alittle better now. Ill have to think about this a little more, but my first response would be that perhaps it was just that kobudo was not as widely spread, or as someone earlier mentioned, it was not available to everyone to study. I dont believe it was limited to an ELite class or higher class of people, because research shows that some of the great Bo masters were servants or even drunks.
I will look into this a little more as you have me really thinking now. Ill put up a follow up post when i come up with something.
yours in Budo
Sal
_________________________
There is always someone who knows more, and noone who knows it all....

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#227375 - 02/08/06 12:45 PM Re: Flavors of a particular kata [Re: Chatan1979]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
(Post note on the word 'elite': please note that I did not use the word 'class'. If anything, it only alluded to koryu, and meant to imply the use of 'limited access'.)

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#227376 - 02/15/06 01:10 PM Re: Flavors of a particular kata [Re: Chatan1979]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Sal:

<<I will look into this a little more as you have me really thinking now.



<<Ill put up a follow up post when i come up with something.

Look forward to hearing when time permits,

J

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#227377 - 02/16/06 08:17 AM Re: Flavors of a particular kata [Re: Ronin1966]
Chatan1979 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/21/05
Posts: 338
Loc: Mahomet , Illinois
well i think you have to take into consideration the numbers.As far as empty handed forms, You have a lot more people who were studing empty handed martial arts than weapons. The other reason that can account for diferences is that people did and do change kata for their own preferences. Odo sensei was known for adding diferent elements to kata quite often. So i think in regards to Okinawan weapons, as I posted earlier, we do see quite a number of diferences in weapons kata, however , with Japanese Koryu, there is a much stronger governing body that helps to prevent changes from happening. So yes I agree that if we look at emptyhanded forms and JAPANESE weapons forms, we dont see the diferences in their performance. However, with okinawan weaponry we do see a huge diference in their performance from school to school.
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