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#227120 - 01/31/06 10:16 PM krav Maga Curriculum?
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
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Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Does the krav Maga curiculum of techniques and tactics very from instructor to instructor and school to school, or is it like many other arts where there is a set standard of techniques and methods which are the same pretty much verywhere? It seems to me like it is somewhat up to the instructor. Also, is Krav still being improved and updated?
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#227121 - 02/01/06 09:06 AM Re: krav Maga Curriculum? [Re: Stormdragon]
Dedicated1 Offline
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Registered: 12/27/05
Posts: 399
Loc: Pennsylvania, U.S.A.
Krav Maga in La is always trying new stuff, just to see what can be enhanced as far as self-defense goes. As for the teaching across the country, it should be the same. The way an Instructor teaches will vary, but what an Instructor teaches should not. In order to be a Krav Maga Instructor you need to pass a three day test on the material and also a teaching test. Once you have passed your test you are given a training manual. All the manuals are the same, so Krav should be the same where ever you are. As for Instructors they MUST be certified in order to teach Krav Maga. As for updating the system I think I've heard some talk about adding more ground work, which would be nice. As for the other stuff, "If it's not broke, don't fix it".
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#227122 - 02/01/06 10:10 AM Re: krav Maga Curriculum? [Re: Dedicated1]
JasonM Offline
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Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 2502
Is there a way to verify if an instructor is certified?
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#227123 - 02/01/06 12:54 PM Re: krav Maga Curriculum? [Re: JasonM]
Dedicated1 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/27/05
Posts: 399
Loc: Pennsylvania, U.S.A.
They should have a certificate from Krav Maga World Wide Headquarters in LA. It will show their certification and their level they are supposed to teach. There are three different levels. (Level 1, Level 2, and Level 3). Most Instructors teach beyond what they are supposed to teach, which I feel is fine if they are teaching proper technique and/or self defense. But just remember that they are only certified by LA to teach what they have been certified on. As for checking to see if they are certified, look for their certificate on the wall or ask to see it. I imagine you can contact LA and ask them to check their records also.
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#227124 - 02/01/06 12:59 PM Re: krav Maga Curriculum? [Re: Dedicated1]
JasonM Offline
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Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 2502
cool, many thanks.
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#227125 - 02/01/06 04:43 PM Re: krav Maga Curriculum? *DELETED* [Re: JasonM]
retzef Offline
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Registered: 05/18/05
Posts: 43
Post deleted by RangerG
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#227126 - 02/01/06 06:39 PM Re: krav Maga Curriculum? [Re: retzef]
Dedicated1 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/27/05
Posts: 399
Loc: Pennsylvania, U.S.A.
I disagree with that post completly, but it would take me to long to explain why, and I don't like to argue the political side of anything. There is a difference between your opinion and the true facts.
_________________________
If your in a "Fair Fight", your tactics suck.

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#227127 - 02/01/06 08:01 PM Re: krav Maga Curriculum? [Re: retzef]
RangerG Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1026
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylvania
Lets not get into who's Krav program is the "real" one or who is more or less qualified. All Krav organizations will be respected equaly in this forum.


Edited by RangerG (02/01/06 10:31 PM)
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#227128 - 02/01/06 08:05 PM Re: krav Maga Curriculum? [Re: retzef]
JasonM Offline
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Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 2502
it would be interesting to see your proof and how you know this? How long have you been doing krav? are you licensed? etc..
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#227129 - 02/02/06 07:19 AM Re: krav Maga Curriculum? [Re: JasonM]
Plantman Offline
Member

Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 62
Loc: Maimi
I don't know what was posted and/or deleted but I can tell you that I have seen the LA groups curriculum and it differs from the IKMA greatly.

Their orange and some blue belt stuff are things we have done in Yellow.

The LA groups version of Krav is a more civilianm or vanilla form of Krav as opposed to the IKMA and even the IKMF for that matter.

I'm not just talking out of my ass here. The United States Patent and Trademark office has all sorts of info on this subject where certain people from LA have verified this to be true.

If anyone has a copy of their Krav curriculum and can post it, I'd be happy to compare.

.02
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#227130 - 02/02/06 04:21 PM Re: krav Maga Curriculum? [Re: Plantman]
RangerG Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1026
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylvania
I am not going to let this get into a who's Krav organization is better or who's curriculum is more realistic. This forum is for everyone who trains in Krav to have equal standing and to have their organization respected. Folks...please don't make me start locking threads and deleting posts. We dislike when traditional forms bash Krav, so let's not bash each other. I'm just not going to tollerate it here...if censorship is what you want...go to one of the "official" Krav sites.


Edited by RangerG (02/02/06 05:10 PM)
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#227131 - 02/02/06 04:51 PM Re: krav Maga Curriculum? [Re: Plantman]
RangerG Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1026
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylvania
Now to answer your question:

http://www.kravmagadfw.com/curriculum.html
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#227132 - 02/02/06 05:31 PM Re: krav Maga Curriculum? [Re: JasonM]
retzef Offline
Member

Registered: 05/18/05
Posts: 43
How long have you been doing krav? are you licensed? etc..




In my last post ever on this site I reply:

I received my Instructor certification from IKMA Grandmaster Haim Gidon while training extensively in Netanya. I trained with David Kahn on a daily basis since I started Krav in Jan 2001. I trained with him and other Black Belts intensively after 9-11 happened a short distance from my job in Times Square. I have been recruited and turned down offers to work in the highest levels of diplomatic security. So, yes I am qualified to have an opinion.

It was nice to chat with you all.
Shalom.
_________________________
So that we may walk in Peace.

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#227133 - 02/02/06 05:38 PM Re: krav Maga Curriculum? [Re: retzef]
Plantman Offline
Member

Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 62
Loc: Maimi
I didn't think I was bashing them Ranger, just offering my opinion.

I'm sure that some of those guys will offer different opinions of the other organizations curriculum.

Thanks for the info, I'll check it out and if you let me, I'll try and point out some differences.
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#227134 - 02/02/06 06:03 PM Re: krav Maga Curriculum? [Re: Plantman]
RangerG Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1026
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylvania
I was not trying to be harsh or overbearing and not pointing at anyone directly. There is this underlying conflict between two or more Krav groups, and I don't want it to spill over into this forum.

Please feel free to point out the differences and we can have a rational discussion as friends.
_________________________
"If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough."

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#227135 - 02/02/06 06:50 PM Re: krav Maga Curriculum? [Re: retzef]
Dedicated1 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/27/05
Posts: 399
Loc: Pennsylvania, U.S.A.
Sorry to hear this is your last post. You have great accomplishments in Krav, and I am sure we all respect that. We were just trying to get the same respect. You have the right to your opinion, but it wasn't fair to say that one instructor is better than the other unless you've seen them or trained with them. I would actually be interested in hearing more about your training. Just because I am certified in LA doesn't make me a bad Instructor or person. If you don't post again, good luck with your training.
_________________________
If your in a "Fair Fight", your tactics suck.

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#227136 - 02/03/06 01:02 AM Re: krav Maga Curriculum? [Re: Dedicated1]
Plantman Offline
Member

Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 62
Loc: Maimi
His point is that he has been trained by the "original" Krav organization, the IKMA. He is biased towards them, as am I.

There are a lot of political issues regarding Krav Maga in the US.
Anyone who has trained under the IKMA, like Restev, who has gone to Israel and has trained under Grandmaster Gidon and the IKMA know how differnt the Israeli Krav is and find it upseting that people who train in the US version of Krav consider it to be the same.

Seek, and ye shall find, that there are only 3 instructors who made it thru the first instructor course , given permission to teach Krav in the US by Imi.

Alan Felman is PA.

Rick Blitstein in Miami
and Darren Levine in LA

Take it for what it's worth guys.

I will wager the cost of a private session(reasonable) that the training and insight you get from Rick B and Allan F will be superior to that you have received elsewhere. By far.

.02
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#227137 - 02/03/06 10:30 AM Re: krav Maga Curriculum? [Re: Plantman]
meh531 Offline
Stranger

Registered: 09/28/05
Posts: 2
Speaking of Alan Feldman, this came up when I did a Google search. Looks like he isn't doing much teaching these days.

http://www.eisenbergrothweiler.com/html/verdicts/martial.html

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#227138 - 02/03/06 11:26 AM Re: krav Maga Curriculum? [Re: Plantman]
Dedicated1 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/27/05
Posts: 399
Loc: Pennsylvania, U.S.A.
I think that's great! This forum was intended for Krav Maga, it's not the LA forum and it's not the IKMA forum. There are people that post here that are learning Krav from a book, all the way up to people that have trained in Israel. I know there is a difference but we should all respect one another for what we are doing, training hard and learning what we can where we can. Not everyone has the time or the money to travel over seas. I would think that on the TKD forum people aren't being looked down upon because the haven't gone to Japan or Korea to train. You do what you can, that should be good enough.
_________________________
If your in a "Fair Fight", your tactics suck.

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#227139 - 02/03/06 11:58 AM Re: krav Maga Curriculum? [Re: Plantman]
wulfy Offline
Stranger

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 2
Plantman, I'm curious what differences you've found?

I've been training with guys under what I believe is the LA system... I would be very curious to know what is so "vanilla" about it in comparison to the "original" form. Your tone implies that the LA version is some sort of friendly "NERF" version of Krav, which doesn't really gel with my experience so far.

I'll add that just because somebody is teaching the "original" system does not mean their system is better (The combatives and groundwork in Krav are by no means unique to the system). I would much rather keep the discussion objective than to bring up the concept of lineage.

I'm not looking to start an argument, but I am interested in specific differences across "brands," and you implied the differences were significant.


Edited by wulfy (02/03/06 11:59 AM)

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#227140 - 02/03/06 05:40 PM Re: krav Maga Curriculum? [Re: wulfy]
Plantman Offline
Member

Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 62
Loc: Maimi
He no longer has a school(he was the first in the country to open one, back in the early 80's) but still teaches in the Philadelphia area. I can get his # if you wish.

I don't have our curriculum in front of me but I can tell you that our yellow belt material covered every single thing in the first 2 levels(yellow and orange) and some of the stuff in the 3rd(green) and 4th(blue).

If you the LA groups curriculum as Ranger G posted you will see that all of that, and more is covered in David Kahn's book and that's an intro to Krav.

Maybe my guy, having learned in Israel from the founder has something to do with the quality and knowledge of the instruction I receive. I'm not saying that the LA groups curriculum is bad, just a little more vanilla than the Israeli version. Heck I was learning gun and knife defenses at yellow belt. I believe that is not taught to you guys until the 4th level.

.02


Edited by Plantman (02/03/06 05:42 PM)
_________________________
Be safe, If not kick someones ass.

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#227141 - 02/03/06 06:25 PM Re: krav Maga Curriculum? [Re: Plantman]
wulfy Offline
Stranger

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 2
Plantman,

Thanks for responding.

We should normalize our relative training schedules before we can compare notes...

My baseline: I completed yellow belt in about 5 months, attending 4 hours/week, and orange belt in approximately 8 additional months, going 7 hours/week.

We've been introduced to knife and gun defense, as well as some other material, across yellow and orange belts, but they haven't been a focus of our training yet, and they certainly were not in our tests.

Does your system follow a similar advancement schedule? It seems like it would be difficult to master all of the techniques through gun and knife (especially knife) at yellow belt given a similar schedule. It takes most people some time just to get the fundamentals (mindset, footwork, combatives) down, which I think is the goal of our yellow belt.

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#227142 - 02/04/06 06:12 AM Re: krav Maga Curriculum? [Re: Plantman]
RangerG Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1026
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylvania
I am having trouble comparing curriculum as the material is presented in units. Can you elaborate on the differences and what units are considered "Yellow" "Orange" etc..?

IKMF Curriculum

Here is the combined curriculum for all the different grades/levels together with those of the various instructor courses offered by our organization. The curriculum is divided to subjects (units), most of them appear here only by name.

KM levels is divided into 4 sections: Practitioner Levels (1-5) ; Graduate Levels (1-5) ; Expert Levels (1-5) ; and Master Levels (1-3)

In some places/countries KM students carry the "regular" colored belts.

(Units 1-4 are here in some details)


Unit 1: General Information and Theory
History of K.M. and of it's founder
Dealing with a dangerous event:
State evaluation, process of dealing with an event
Neutralizing a danger and all its aspects
Possible outcome of a violent conformation.
Principles underlying the defense techniques.
Principles underlying the attack techniques.
Training by principles - from techniques to real life variations
Using common objects for self defense -theory and practice.
Rhythm and pace.
Using /relying on natural reactions to correct or prove a point.
Principles and techniques of mental training.


Unit 2: Teaching Methodology; Human body
Basics of anatomy and physiology.
Correct instructing for instructors.
Lesson plan outlines & preparing.
Teacher student relationship.


Unit 3: Preliminary Considerations
Safety in training
Organization of training: methods of training
Dress and appearance
Maintaining the studio
Behavior during training
The warm-up
General principles
Exercises and variation
Approach to stretching and flexibility
Unit 4: The Basics
How to stand - different outlet stances
How to Punch : The basics use of body's weapons; make a fist; Theory of recoiling
Movement and shadow boxing
How to handle a fall
Fall breaks backwards & from high position
Side fall breaks
Soft/hard forward fall breaks
Rolls forward - high, low, sideways,
Roll backwards.
Rolling with assignments, Combinations of rolls and fall breaks
(The following units appear here by the subject's name only)


Unit 5 - Attacking with the Hands
Unit 6 - Attacking with the Legs
Unit 7 - Defenses against Punches
Unit 8 - Defenses against Kicks
Unit 9 - Releases from Grabs, Chocks & Holds at high level
Unit 10 - Releases from Grabs & Holds at medium level
Unit 11 - Releases with Throws
Unit 12 - Release from holds & grabs on the floor
Unit 13 - Leverages & Takedowns.
Unit 14 - Defense against attacks involving a stick / club.
Unit 15 - Defenses against attacks involving a knife (edged weapons).
Unit 16 - Defense against threats involving a knife (edged weapons).
Unit 17 - Defense against threats involving handgun.
Unit 18 - Defense against threats involving Submachine gun.
Unit 19 - Using common objects as weapons in defense against armed assailants
Unit 20 - Self defense against two assailants or more (armed with knife/stick or not armed)
Unit 20-25 - Military training units
Unit 26-30 - Law Enforcement training unites
Unit 31-33 - Additional units for Security and VIP Protection
Unit 34 - Self-defense for Children - Applications and transformations of the basic techniques and training methods for children.
Unit 35 - Self-defense for Women - Applications and transformations of the basic techniques and training methods for women.
Unit 36 - Fighting Drills.
Units 37-38 - Fighting Tactics and applications.
Unit 39 - Fighting in different positions & places.
Unit 40 - Ways and applications of mental training.
Unit 41 - 44 Training Methods for the above units.
Unit 45 - Simulations and scenarios, analyzing and training accordingly.
_________________________
"If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough."

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#227143 - 02/04/06 07:27 AM Re: krav Maga Curriculum? [Re: RangerG]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Is groundfighting usually taught on the side, or periphery of training based on the knowledge of the instructor and what they know from other training?
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#227144 - 02/04/06 08:55 AM Re: krav Maga Curriculum? [Re: RangerG]
JasonM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 2502
That is interesting Ranger. MY instructor, hasn't even mentioned history and the such. It sometimes makes me wonder why we aren't taught history and stuff about the founder.
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#227145 - 02/04/06 09:32 AM Re: krav Maga Curriculum? [Re: JasonM]
Dedicated1 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/27/05
Posts: 399
Loc: Pennsylvania, U.S.A.
You should of heard basic background information about Krav Maga and it's founder at your first classes.. It is part of the lesson plan, and an important part at that. Every student should know the history of the MA form they are taking. I give my student's a brief history, if they need more I will talk to them outside of class or give them the resources to research it on their own. To give the complete history would take the entire class time if not longer. It is definaltly worth learning.
_________________________
If your in a "Fair Fight", your tactics suck.

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#227146 - 02/04/06 09:59 AM Re: krav Maga Curriculum? [Re: Dedicated1]
JasonM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 2502
I was afraid of that, because my instructor doesn't do that. The only thing remotely close to history that I learned was how to pronounce Krav Maga.

HHmmm, dunno why he doesn't teach history. Anybody have any ideas why an instructor wouldn't? I would love to have Ranger swing by for a visit at my KM school and see first hand what our classes are about. But, I know that is a loong shot. I guess I will just have to read and learn KM history on my own... &
_________________________
90 percent of good abs is your nutrition

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#227147 - 02/04/06 01:04 PM Re: krav Maga Curriculum? [Re: JasonM]
RangerG Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1026
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylvania
Never know...Dedicated1 and I could show up anywhere...
_________________________
"If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough."

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#227148 - 02/04/06 01:23 PM Re: krav Maga Curriculum? [Re: RangerG]
JasonM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 2502
_________________________
90 percent of good abs is your nutrition

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#227149 - 02/04/06 02:10 PM Re: krav Maga Curriculum? [Re: JasonM]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
My god, why so much politics involved in Krav, it's insane. And I thought krav was krav, simple as that. Dont all the organizations cover the same material one way or another, I mean isn't this a lot of rucous for something as simple as when certain things are taught?
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#227150 - 02/04/06 02:19 PM Re: krav Maga Curriculum? [Re: Stormdragon]
RangerG Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1026
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylvania
Yea...it is a lot of rucous, but I would rather get it out of the way now, rather than have it lurking in the background with hostile feelings. We are all adults..more or less, and we should be able to discuss Krav...with respect for each other.

Then again I could be
_________________________
"If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough."

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#227151 - 02/04/06 02:43 PM Re: krav Maga Curriculum? [Re: RangerG]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Very true, and i mean we should all be able to discuss matters like this sensibly without so much antagonism and animosity, i've looked at some other forums for krav and seen arguments and pretty heated debates on this whole thing, and its pretty sad to see practitioners of the same system and art be so divided over such insignificant issues. however i guess this is how it is one way or another for the majority MA.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#227152 - 02/05/06 08:28 AM Re: krav Maga Curriculum? [Re: Stormdragon]
KMX Offline
Member

Registered: 08/29/05
Posts: 30
Alan Feldman still teaches in Newtown,Pa.
I have been training with him for the past 5 years and he is one of the best teachers I have ever had..martial arts and otherwise.His email is BOTTAL@aol.com

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#227153 - 02/07/06 08:49 PM Re: krav Maga Curriculum? [Re: KMX]
Plantman Offline
Member

Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 62
Loc: Maimi
I found out from Rick today that after David Kahn left Miami he went to PA and trained with Alan for several years before going to Israel and training with Grandmaster Gidon of the IKMA.

Incidentaly, we will be training with David this weekend in Miami, I'll let you guys know how it goes.

Gotta bring my A game I guess.
_________________________
Be safe, If not kick someones ass.

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#227154 - 02/08/06 12:05 AM Re: krav Maga Curriculum? [Re: Plantman]
KMX Offline
Member

Registered: 08/29/05
Posts: 30
David gets around...I trained with him two weeks ago when he visited our class.

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#227155 - 02/08/06 08:22 AM Re: krav Maga Curriculum? [Re: KMX]
Plantman Offline
Member

Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 62
Loc: Maimi
Quote:

David gets around...I trained with him two weeks ago when he visited our class.




Where's do you train? What can I expect from him in terms of training?

Thanks
_________________________
Be safe, If not kick someones ass.

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#227156 - 02/08/06 01:15 PM Re: krav Maga Curriculum? [Re: Plantman]
KMX Offline
Member

Registered: 08/29/05
Posts: 30
I train with Alan Feldman in PA...I dont know what a typical class by Dave is like since when he visits he usually just shows us some of the new additions to the syllabus and stuff that the IKMA is working on these days.

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#227157 - 02/08/06 06:21 PM Re: krav Maga Curriculum? [Re: KMX]
RangerG Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1026
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylvania
You must be right down the pike from me. I am near Exton and train in Thorndale. Small world.
_________________________
"If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough."

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#227158 - 02/12/06 09:07 PM Re: krav Maga Curriculum? [Re: RangerG]
Plantman Offline
Member

Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 62
Loc: Maimi
I trained with David and Rick this weekend and can only say that the man is not to be messed with.

Quick like a cat and strong as an ox, and fluid to the point that it looks like he was born to Krav.

I had the privilge of being the assailant several times and was humbled rather quickly.

The emphasis on Retzev and finishing an opponent are heavily emphasised in his training method.

I can't imagine what current grandmaster Gidon and his students who have been training all their lives are like.
It's hard to imagine anyone being better than Rick or David.

Watching them playfight, if only briefly was also amazing to witness.

I plan on going to Israel with david and Rick next summer.


Edited by Plantman (02/12/06 09:09 PM)

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#227159 - 02/14/06 02:05 PM Re: krav Maga Curriculum? [Re: Plantman]
KMX Offline
Member

Registered: 08/29/05
Posts: 30
There really is an Israeli flavor to movement that really needs to be seen to understand...I have only seen it in David,Rick,Eyal Yanilov,Alan Feldman and a couple of his students as well as Ohad Gidon and Yigal Arbiv.It really is the main thing lacking in American krav.

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#227160 - 02/14/06 03:59 PM Re: krav Maga Curriculum? [Re: KMX]
umsangil Offline
Member

Registered: 07/22/05
Posts: 83
Thats interesting. Do you mean movement in regards to footwork or combatives? Do you have any resources that illustrate this? How is it different from American Krav?

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#227161 - 02/14/06 04:07 PM Re: krav Maga Curriculum? [Re: umsangil]
Dedicated1 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/27/05
Posts: 399
Loc: Pennsylvania, U.S.A.
It is wrong to say that one is lacking of the other, I think RangerG covered that before. They are different in some ways, Krav In the US was enhanced to be used for the people and the situations of the United States. Israeli Krav was designed for Israel. That's the difference, one is not better then the other. It's a matter of what you are looking for out of the system.
_________________________
If your in a "Fair Fight", your tactics suck.

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#227162 - 02/14/06 08:55 PM Re: krav Maga Curriculum? [Re: Dedicated1]
Plantman Offline
Member

Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 62
Loc: Maimi
Quote:

It is wrong to say that one is lacking of the other, I think RangerG covered that before. They are different in some ways, Krav In the US was enhanced to be used for the people and the situations of the United States. Israeli Krav was designed for Israel. That's the difference, one is not better then the other. It's a matter of what you are looking for out of the system.




That's pretty much what I meant by saying "vanilla". The US version is just that, a US version.

In fact, we had a guy join our class from out of town tonite who trains in vancouver with KMAA and he was commenting on the differences.

I'll put it this way: The guy is here in Miami on vacation and loves the instruction he got on Sunday, that he plans on doing more one on one private lessons before he goes back to Vancouver.

Even in my situation, learning with Rick and David and their style, I am sure it will not be the same as the whole experience I will get if and when I go.
_________________________
Be safe, If not kick someones ass.

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#227163 - 02/14/06 11:50 PM Re: krav Maga Curriculum? [Re: Dedicated1]
KMX Offline
Member

Registered: 08/29/05
Posts: 30
Quote:

It is wrong to say that one is lacking of the other, I think RangerG covered that before. They are different in some ways, Krav In the US was enhanced to be used for the people and the situations of the United States. Israeli Krav was designed for Israel. That's the difference, one is not better then the other. It's a matter of what you are looking for out of the system.




Thats not what I am talking about..its not a matter of techniques its about a fluid style of movement that you really only see in Imi's direct students and some of the Israeli instructors you just dont see this "flavor" in Darrens org.

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#227164 - 02/14/06 11:52 PM Re: krav Maga Curriculum? [Re: KMX]
KMX Offline
Member

Registered: 08/29/05
Posts: 30
also..you dont really see it in the european krav schools.

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#227165 - 02/15/06 06:57 AM Re: krav Maga Curriculum? [Re: KMX]
JasonM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 2502
Could you explain what you mean by fluid? Becuase to me, after reading what you posted is sounds like the US version is robotic and we more like boards..
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#227166 - 02/15/06 10:41 AM Re: krav Maga Curriculum? [Re: JasonM]
Plantman Offline
Member

Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 62
Loc: Maimi
Quote:

Could you explain what you mean by fluid? Becuase to me, after reading what you posted is sounds like the US version is robotic and we more like boards..




The concept of retsev, was initiated and introduced into the IKMA curriculum by current IKMA grandmaster Haim Gidon.

It's the idea of constant movement, from one technique flowing thru to another and another and another, until your opponent is finished. Perhaps that's what he's referring to.

Like I said about the canadian fellow I met yesterday, he will be testing for leel 3 soon and was a bit behind and had no concept of retsev and the whole continuous movement thing.

I think that's what he may have meant. Correct me if I'm wrong.
_________________________
Be safe, If not kick someones ass.

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#227167 - 02/15/06 11:13 PM Re: krav Maga Curriculum? [Re: Plantman]
Dedicated1 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/27/05
Posts: 399
Loc: Pennsylvania, U.S.A.
I see the same thing with the Instructors that teach the US version. Any one who has been training long enough and has mastered the techniques and combatives can put them all together. When you transition into different attacks well, they seem to have a very fluent motion to them. It almost looks graceful, yet so violent. You've got to love it!
_________________________
If your in a "Fair Fight", your tactics suck.

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#227168 - 02/22/06 07:47 PM Re: krav Maga Curriculum? [Re: Dedicated1]
casmor Offline
Newbie

Registered: 02/22/06
Posts: 12
Loc: Mexico City Mexico
Hi, I live in Mexico City, so a LA based organization is out of my range, but I think you can always ask your instructor where he was certified, and who trained him, so you can check it out. My instructor for instance studied for several years with the security chief of the israeli embassy in Mexico, so even when he don't have a diploma hanging on the wall, is something I was able to verify. Besides if you have ever practiced other combat system your experience can help to separate a good instructor from a bad one.
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"I don't need to fight to prove I'm right"

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#227169 - 03/13/06 12:15 AM Re: krav Maga Curriculum? [Re: casmor]
PSYOPS Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/06
Posts: 25
Hello Krav Practitioners,

I am a licensed Krav Maga instructor. I was licensed in LA and I think that I can shed a little light on this issue. Krav Maga as you all know is one of the most aggressive systems on the market and we have been getting a lot of attention in the media lately. This is not an accident as it happens. The L.A. style of teaching is very different from that of the IKMF. There are reasons for this and they are really quite simple.

LIABILITY!

I know Mr. Levine as well as Mr. John Whitman. In America we live in one of the most litigious societies in the world. Mr.Levine is the Assistant District Attorney in Los Angeles. He is a lawyer folks. If anyone knows about liability trust me he does. This is why many of the techniques in the first 3 phases of Krav Maga are basic in nature. If a student gets into a confrontation and the other person is injured badly, regardless of fault the injury sustained is an issue in a civil proceeding. So to curtail the liability the program is scaled back at lower levels.

However once you grow in the system you will see many of the things from Grandmaster Imi's original text. Also many people tend to forget that the symbol of Krav Maga is purposely designed with a circle at either side of the Hebrew K and M. This represents the philosophy of openess. The system is constantly changing and therefore must remain open to interpretation.

Lastly,

Obviously the typical American citizen does not face the risks or dangers that our counterparts in Israel face. Training civilians in the same manner that soldiers are trained will no doubt leave the trainer in a position of vunerability when it comes to liability.

I hope this helps.

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#227170 - 03/19/06 09:56 PM Re: krav Maga Curriculum? [Re: PSYOPS]
KM_Oregon Offline
Stranger

Registered: 03/19/06
Posts: 1
Loc: Oregon, Lane County
Well I am new to this forum and I was happy to see so many Krav enthusiasts here!

I think the point you made about "Liability" is interesting. I have been training in Krav Maga with Darren Levine for a few years now and I have never heard him mention the liability aspect in a civilian class.

It has been mentioned in Law Enforcement training however, but the liability is more of a police issue. Civilians are not expected to carry OC Spray, batons, Tasers, etc. or even have the training to know when and where to use them. Police are held to different standards in regards to use of force because of their training and experience.

It doesn’t mean that you won’t get sued, however at least you will be alive to fight that in court. You do have the right to defend yourself regardless, but I do agree there is a sue-happy aspect of our culture and it does play a role in how some approach self-defense.

Kirsten
_________________________
Krav Maga of Oregon www.kravmagaor.com

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#227171 - 03/21/06 11:19 AM Re: krav Maga Curriculum? [Re: Plantman]
Scotland_krav Offline
Stranger

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 1
Hi to you all from Scotland. I am a new Krav maga instructor with the IKMF. There are only 5 of us in the whole of scotland so its pretty virgin territory for this relatively unheard of style in this area.
no matter what organisation you are with , there will always be variations, so long as the core is the same -- get home safe -- then it doesnt matter how the syllabus is arranged.

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#227172 - 03/21/06 04:02 PM Re: krav Maga Curriculum? [Re: Scotland_krav]
PSYOPS Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/06
Posts: 25
During Phase C of the instructor certification in Los Angeles in January. Mr. Levine spoke specifically regarding Liability.

For instance when teaching stick defense an instructor should not strike the attacker with the stick in front of the class unless the instructor backs away and the attacker confronts him/her again. Of course if a guy attacks me with a stick I am going to shove it down his throat. But for liability sake we should not show our students this.

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#227173 - 04/12/06 09:28 PM Re: krav Maga Curriculum? [Re: PSYOPS]
Plantman Offline
Member

Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 62
Loc: Maimi
Quote:

Hello Krav Practitioners,

I am a licensed Krav Maga instructor. I was licensed in LA and I think that I can shed a little light on this issue. Krav Maga as you all know is one of the most aggressive systems on the market and we have been getting a lot of attention in the media lately. This is not an accident as it happens. The L.A. style of teaching is very different from that of the IKMF. There are reasons for this and they are really quite simple.

LIABILITY!

I know Mr. Levine as well as Mr. John Whitman. In America we live in one of the most litigious societies in the world. Mr.Levine is the Assistant District Attorney in Los Angeles. He is a lawyer folks. If anyone knows about liability trust me he does. This is why many of the techniques in the first 3 phases of Krav Maga are basic in nature. If a student gets into a confrontation and the other person is injured badly, regardless of fault the injury sustained is an issue in a civil proceeding. So to curtail the liability the program is scaled back at lower levels.

However once you grow in the system you will see many of the things from Grandmaster Imi's original text. Also many people tend to forget that the symbol of Krav Maga is purposely designed with a circle at either side of the Hebrew K and M. This represents the philosophy of openess. The system is constantly changing and therefore must remain open to interpretation.

Lastly,

Obviously the typical American citizen does not face the risks or dangers that our counterparts in Israel face. Training civilians in the same manner that soldiers are trained will no doubt leave the trainer in a position of vunerability when it comes to liability.

I hope this helps.




Than would you agree that the Krav taught in LA varies from the IMMA AND IKMF due to the legal aspect?

Whether the issue is liability(and I agree to a point) the LA's curriculum is different than the one used by the IKMA and IKMF.

The fact is that there is liability in any type of MA of Self defense you teach.

If a guy messes with me and I gouge out his eye, that's his problem not mine.
_________________________
Be safe, If not kick someones ass.

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#227174 - 04/13/06 04:51 PM Re: krav Maga Curriculum? [Re: Plantman]
PSYOPS Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/06
Posts: 25
There can be no question that there are differences in teaching style and various techniques. The reasons are I am sure a question of personal preference and philosophy

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#227175 - 04/14/06 07:51 AM Re: krav Maga Curriculum? [Re: Scotland_krav]
RangerG Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1026
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylvania
Quote:

Hi to you all from Scotland. I am a new Krav maga instructor with the IKMF. There are only 5 of us in the whole of scotland so its pretty virgin territory for this relatively unheard of style in this area.
no matter what organisation you are with , there will always be variations, so long as the core is the same -- get home safe -- then it doesnt matter how the syllabus is arranged.




Well, considering that for centuries the Scots have been considered the "Heavy Infantry" of the UK, a Scottish Krav Instructor must be regarded on the same level as a Main Battle Tank.....

Also, do you train in Utili-Kilts? Cuz that would be awesome!
_________________________
"If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough."

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#227176 - 12/31/06 11:15 PM Re: krav Maga Curriculum? [Re: RangerG]
Gman290 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 12/31/06
Posts: 14
Loc: Pattata, Thailand
I did my Instructor course with Hiam Gidon IKMA in July 2005 in Israel. Before I did KM in Ireland under a IKMF guy...but he changed the IKMF KM and added in his own stuff from Jim Weagner RBSD and Combatives...so it was not true KM.

Anyway... I was very impressed with skill in IKMA and David Kahn was on the course too, and is excellent...but the Israeli guys are better even. look on www.realfighting.com and look back for an interview with a IKMA guy called Yigal... now he is real amazing!

Basically all the material in David Kahns books is the yellow belt requirements and some of orange belt in IKMA...so if you go through his book and can do all of what is there really good...you get a yellow belt only! so from this take it the standard is pretty high.

Me, I am more into Muay Thai as I live in Thailand now...but I am started to teach KM with Combatives and other RBSD stuff...so I am sort of independent. I would rather do that, than be invloved in politics etc...
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Krav Maga Self Defence Thailand www.kravmagathailand.com

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#227177 - 01/10/07 11:51 AM Re: krav Maga Curriculum? [Re: Gman290]
MI_Student Offline
Stranger

Registered: 01/10/07
Posts: 1
I'm looking for Krav training videos, but I really want to avoid the LA based training (don't mean to offend anyone, it's just my preference after spending hours looking into it on the internet). Anyone have a info on where to get said videos? Also, I'm located in Michigan..my search shows schools that seem to be LA affiliates. Any schools nearby that aren't (schools in surrounding states would be ok too)?

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#227178 - 02/04/07 12:01 PM Re: krav Maga Curriculum? [Re: MI_Student]
harold Offline
Newbie

Registered: 11/29/06
Posts: 10
Try the Mike Kanarek Haganah or Moni Azik's Commando Krav Maga.Also the Hisardut and Kapap vids.

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#227179 - 03/15/07 05:29 PM Re: krav Maga Curriculum? [Re: harold]
sproutopop Offline
Newbie

Registered: 03/15/07
Posts: 11
I'm curious as to other people's view of the dual student/instructor track in Krav Maga.

At the school I was in, (Krav enthuasiast for 4 1/2 years), the students were in a track that involved progession through successively harder levels (Levels 1-4)

However, the instructors were under an abbreviated separate track. That shortened program was not easy and they all had to go through rigorous phase training in Los Angeles, then return as instructors.

In other martial arts, instructors were typically the senior people in the dojo. However, Krav's system enabled fairly junior people to be the instructors. (It was not uncommmon for the instructor of the higher level classes to be the most junior person in the room.)

Though the standardization brought on by the instructor training in LA is good for the entire system, this dual track system sort of established two separate groups in the school. You were either in the instructor track or the student track.

Because the instructors (in general) hadn't progressed through as junior and then senior students, they didn't have the shared experiences of the people they were teaching. (Again, this is a generalization because a couple of the instructors were very experienced and outstanding in disciplines other than Krav.)

Is this important or does it not matter?

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#227180 - 03/16/07 05:29 PM Re: krav Maga Curriculum? [Re: sproutopop]
Dedicated1 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/27/05
Posts: 399
Loc: Pennsylvania, U.S.A.
The failure rate for Instructor Certification is very high, so you usually only pass if you are at the top of your game. If your Instructor is good at what he does I wouldn't sweat it.
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If your in a "Fair Fight", your tactics suck.

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#227181 - 03/16/07 08:13 PM Re: krav Maga Curriculum? [Re: Scotland_krav]
TomTom Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/07
Posts: 35
Loc: UK
Is it just me or is this becoming far too political and forgetting the entire point of Krav Maga. That it is based on simplicity and the bodies natural system of reaction and movement. How is Krav going in Scotland ? Does it have much of a following? I'm at a club in Essex, and it's pretty much unheard of.
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#227182 - 03/16/07 09:42 PM Re: krav Maga Curriculum? [Re: TomTom]
sproutopop Offline
Newbie

Registered: 03/15/07
Posts: 11
Asking questions and examining systems isn't a threat. Its a good thing.

Krav is a great system.

However its become so popular in the U.S. that its placing huge demands on schools. Ultimately those demands may not be a bad thing.

But the massive growth in popularity during my time there made them more evident as time went on.

There aren't enough teachers to go around. So an alternative track was created unlike other systems to quickly train teachers.

The question is whether or not rapid rigorous training of teachers is a replacement for experience in the system?

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#227183 - 03/17/07 07:54 AM Re: krav Maga Curriculum? [Re: sproutopop]
TomTom Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/07
Posts: 35
Loc: UK
I think that I would lean towards experiance over rapid training, in order to retain the integrity of the system as a whole. It comes across a little, that it is demand that is shaping the future.Which I'm not sure is a good thing?? I see mention the phrase Mcdojo used quite a bit - I'm guessing this is pretty much aimed at insructors with either fake credentials or have only been using the system a number of months and have now put themseleves forward as a teacher. Personally I'm not that interested by certificates or diplomas of one school over another either, as long as you are happy with your instructor I guess is the real truth.But if you are buying into any product, you should receive, what you thought you were buying! With a lot of schools in any MA, it is a business, and as such they should be open about there product/service they are supplying. As humans we are competative by nature, why else do we learn self deence or a martial art? To protect ourselves from each other! We will always judge each other, mines better than yours, my dad's bigger than your dad! it is human nature.
But I do think that schools must be open about the credentials of there instructors, it will then be up to the students to form there own opinion.
You pays your money , you takes your choice!
_________________________
He who dares wins, Rodney!

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#227184 - 03/17/07 09:30 AM Re: krav Maga Curriculum? [Re: TomTom]
sproutopop Offline
Newbie

Registered: 03/15/07
Posts: 11
Agreed. That's why my original post wasn't necessarily a knock against Krav. I can argue both sides of the issue and am truly on the fence.

I think the question in the Krav world is different than the one about McDojos because you do have that unique element of standardization required by mandatory training at the national center. So its not a black and white answer concerning the quality of instruction.

My situation was probably made more unique because I was one of the original students at this particular Krav school. When several of the initial instructors left, it made all the advanced students much more senior than the instructors who came in to fill their shoes.

In a perfect world, those advanced students (me included) probably would have gone into the instructor track and done all the training in LA. However, due to time and expense, that wasn't in the cards.

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#227185 - 03/18/07 09:47 AM Re: krav Maga Curriculum? [Re: sproutopop]
TomTom Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/07
Posts: 35
Loc: UK
Money and time ! Always my problem too!!

In your case, I'd probably be happier being taught by yourself with the greater experiance and someone who has just done an intensive course? But saying that everyone has to start as a new instructor at some point?? Ideally it would be experience plus the instructor course, that is easier said than done though!

Is there much of a difference in Krav across the US from coast to coast?? It's very difficult to answer it for the UK, mainly because there are so few schools, so comparing is very hard as your lucky to find one school never mind 2!
Krav is obviously pretty big across Europe but it is still early days in the UK really, once you get out of London it is difficult to find a school.
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He who dares wins, Rodney!

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#227186 - 03/20/07 11:36 AM Re: krav Maga Curriculum? [Re: TomTom]
sproutopop Offline
Newbie

Registered: 03/15/07
Posts: 11
I'm not sure about how it translates coast to coast. I am on the East Coast. I hear very good things about several of the schools in the Mid-Atlantic. Beyond that, I'm not a good resource for info. Maybe someone else has some knowledge?

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#227187 - 07/23/07 05:17 PM Re: krav Maga Curriculum? [Re: Stormdragon]
Meliam Offline
Member

Registered: 07/23/07
Posts: 61
Hey all, I'm new to this forum but I wanted to comment on this topic. I am from Europe. Grew up in South America and Europe, and I live now in the US.

My background is Knock-Down Karate, Muay Thai, and BJJ before I got into Krav.

It is very hard to compare systems belt for belt, some systems will focus on some aspects of the curriculum before others. As long as it all gets covered in the end it's all good.

Furthermore; Just because a system or a group are the original practitioners of the system does not mean they are the best.Look at the Dutch Thai Boxers (Even fighters from Thailand travel to Holland now to train with the Dutch Fighters)or take Brazilian Jujitsu VS Japanese Jujitsu. Some styles that are good in themselves can evolve to something even better when used by groups that bring in new ideas that the founders of the system did not include in the original form.

Meliam

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#227188 - 09/10/07 04:36 PM Re: krav Maga Curriculum? [Re: Meliam]
sproutopop Offline
Newbie

Registered: 03/15/07
Posts: 11
I understand what you're saying. Maybe I wasn't clear in what I said.

New ideas are always great to incorporate and should never be disregarded just because they are new.

However, there is a difference between that and simply buying a certificate to teach.

In my opinion, for Krav its a hard thing to balance at this point in time. It is a great system and is growing rapidly

However, its hard to keep motivated people in a system when those students (who by their nature have put many long hours training) see a short-time instructor pay a fee and obtain elevated status. There is a credibility/respect issue.

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#422687 - 10/02/09 04:05 PM Re: krav Maga Curriculum? [Re: sproutopop]
OrZ Offline
Stranger

Registered: 09/30/09
Posts: 2
Hi, i'm also new to this forum, i train KM in israel for a few years now and i also used to train Judo (6 years) and Tkd (3 years).

i saw alot of you guys talking about the differences between styles that you have in other countries of KM that i really didnt know about as in israel we have 2 known styles of KM which is Krav Maga and Krav Magen. both supposed to be about the same.

with that i saw alot of peoples were numbering some differences between what they saw in israel and what they saw back in the u.s.

for that i can tell you that most of the change you witness is not in what they teach but in the mentality of the people in israel, i've visited in europe and in u.s for many times for periods of month+ and i can tell you that the israeli peoples are much more Aggresive (in nature but also on the other side a bit wormer), i belive this comes from the enviorment we live in here. most peoples in israel were in the army alot of the martial artists also as combatant and were in life & death situations. and there is always the fear of terrorist acts that may happen here or kidnaping so when we train in the krav maga it is as if we were in a life - death situation that unfortuantly most of us in here know.

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#423821 - 11/30/09 06:32 PM Re: krav Maga Curriculum? [Re: OrZ]
ArizonaKravMaga Offline
ArizonaKravMaga
Newbie

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 5
Loc: Phoenix and Verde Valley, Ariz...
Well said. The biggest difference between Krav Maga and Krav Magen, since Eli Avikzar is in my lineage, is this: Imi never did Judo or Aikido in any serious enough manner as to earn rank. Eli Avikzar earned advanced Black Belt degrees. http://www.kami.org.il/new/founder_eng.asp

While Imi and Eli collaborated on building defenses against the skills in Judo and Aikido, Eli's understanding went much deeper in these areas. This is but one reason he was the obvious choice to replace Imi as chief Instructor of Krav Maga and Fitness to the IDF when Imi retired.

It was Imi who approved of Eli Avizar's seeking training in other arts in order to develop those defenses. In my opinion, he was younger and thus more capable than Imi of doing so with speed and proficiency.

This is where KM took other turns as well. As in our lineage, which is - Imi, Eli, Itay Gil, Moshe Katz then myself. Much of what we do was heavily influenced by Itay's direct training with Eli Avikzar. Yes, we are different from IKMA, IKMF, KMWW (KMAA) and any others I have seen. But, I respect anyone who is doing something to better defend themselves and their loved ones. I am biased though smile!

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#423849 - 12/01/09 09:32 PM Re: krav Maga Curriculum? [Re: ArizonaKravMaga]
infntryldr Offline
Stranger

Registered: 09/08/08
Posts: 2
So does Krav Magen have a more Judo/Aikido flavor to it? And would this be the same with the IKI?

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#423867 - 12/02/09 07:26 PM Re: krav Maga Curriculum? [Re: infntryldr]
ArizonaKravMaga Offline
ArizonaKravMaga
Newbie

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 5
Loc: Phoenix and Verde Valley, Ariz...
Yes and no, you will see a strong influence from Judo, Aikido, and JJ/BJJ in that IKI utilizes far more whole body (gross motor) skills in it's techniques. For instance we NEVER grab a gun by the muzzle with one hand without first securing enough control over the entire limb to prevent an aggessive attacker from simply yanking it back or redirecting the muzzle back at us and shooting!

However, the influence is not in any way like the original applications of such holds from any of the above arts.

I know this is a vague answer, but it's just not easy to describe in typed format. Without pics, video or being in person it's really hard to give an adequate perspective. You can see some of what I mean in some videos I posted on you tube. Just search for Cottonwood Combat.
_________________________
"That is the most necessary and difficult thing in krav maga - that I must be so good that I don't have to kill" or in regard to punishing an attacker "Why do you want to break a dead man's bones?" Translated from Imi Lichtenfeld in Cleveland, OH 1984

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#428589 - 07/25/10 06:57 AM Re: krav Maga Curriculum? [Re: ArizonaKravMaga]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
What ever happened to RangerG?
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Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#428595 - 07/25/10 08:26 AM Re: krav Maga Curriculum? [Re: Stormdragon]
JasonM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 2502
dunno..but I was recently thinking the same thing.
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90 percent of good abs is your nutrition

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