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#226464 - 01/29/06 07:13 PM SIDEKICKS
jamestkdkungfu Offline
Member

Registered: 01/28/06
Posts: 113
i ahve noticed that many people will leave them selves open for sidekicks alot of the time they wont do it if you set them up for a back they fix it but don tset them up and wham you have hit them with a sidekick i think people need to realize the value of this kick in taekwondo (olmpic style mainly other styles do alot more on the sidekick)

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#226465 - 01/29/06 07:45 PM Re: SIDEKICKS [Re: jamestkdkungfu]
gojuwarrior1 Offline
tougher than you

Registered: 12/24/02
Posts: 1178
Loc: East Coast, USA
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#226466 - 01/29/06 09:24 PM Re: SIDEKICKS [Re: jamestkdkungfu]
Subedei Offline
Member

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 479
I'd say the sidekick is the second most useful kick in our arsenal, right behind the front kick. Roundhouse is quite overrated in actual combat IMO.

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#226467 - 01/29/06 10:36 PM Re: SIDEKICKS [Re: jamestkdkungfu]
mean_fighter Offline
Member

Registered: 12/18/05
Posts: 160
Quote:

i ahve noticed that many people will leave them selves open for sidekicks alot of the time they wont do it if you set them up for a back they fix it but don tset them up and wham you have hit them with a sidekick i think people need to realize the value of this kick in taekwondo (olmpic style mainly other styles do alot more on the sidekick)




Uhmmmmmmm........... no offense buddy but what are you trying to say to us here?

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#226468 - 01/30/06 05:06 AM Re: SIDEKICKS [Re: jamestkdkungfu]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Hey what's up james

Your going to have to edit your post bro. It's really hard to understand it. I think you might have been typing fast, happens to me all the time. I type so fast I often miss a couple of words in my sentences.

-Tek
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#226469 - 01/30/06 05:16 AM Re: SIDEKICKS [Re: Subedei]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Have you notice many practitioners have a lot of trouble executing proper side kicks? Many martial artist I've seen are unaware that they are actually doing round kicks only they are making contact with thier heels. Rather then lifting the knee up and thrusting the leg out, they are chambering the knees kicing only from the bent knee but they are using the heel to make contact.

So much power is lost when doing those side kicks.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#226470 - 01/30/06 10:28 AM Re: SIDEKICKS [Re: TeK9]
Eveal Offline
the freshmaker

Registered: 10/15/04
Posts: 303
Sidekick is by far the best kick in the arsenal period! Especially since alot of TKD fighters fight in side stances. Ok now let me explain my reasons.

Front kicks - Generally fast and snapped. They do not have the KO power unless they are thrusted. They are also easily counted if thrown off the back leg and they put your body in front forward position if thrown correcly making it hard to move the side angles.

Roundkick - Fast / moderatly powerful they can have KO power if the hip is commited into it like it should be. They are easily defended against. All it takes to stop a roundkick is to sidestep or body check them to jam the kicks.

Sidekicks (Gods gift to man) - The most powerful kick next to back kick. Hits with the heel of the full causing maximum damage to an oppenent. Hard to get by and defend against them because you can throw them at all different angles. If blocked, its still going to hurt. Best kick in the world so please use it or you will die.
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#226471 - 01/30/06 10:42 AM Re: SIDEKICKS [Re: TeK9]
Subedei Offline
Member

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 479
That's only true of a small portion of sidekicks. Most are completely linear.


Edited by Subedei (01/30/06 11:55 AM)

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#226472 - 01/30/06 10:57 AM Re: SIDEKICKS [Re: jamestkdkungfu]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
Quote:

i ahve noticed that many people will leave them selves open for sidekicks alot of the time they wont do it if you set them up for a back they fix it but don tset them up and wham you have hit them with a sidekick i think people need to realize the value of this kick in taekwondo (olmpic style mainly other styles do alot more on the sidekick)




Thanks for your opinion James, however it might have been better to cite a particular example. I don't think you will find many people who, having read your post, will open themselves up for your charge.

I study Chang-Hon TKD- and personally use the side-kick quite a lot, indeed it is probably my most often thrown kick. I do not throw it using the heel though, I prefer to use the footsword. My advice is go and throw side-kicks alot in sparring, and perhaps they will learn to use them more!

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#226473 - 01/30/06 10:58 AM Re: SIDEKICKS [Re: Subedei]
Eveal Offline
the freshmaker

Registered: 10/15/04
Posts: 303
Quote:

That's not only true of a small portion of sidekicks. Most are completely linear.




Explain further to me please. Thats such a vague statement.

Though every kick is linear when fully extented the versitility of the side kick is far more dominate. Look at your body positioning and angles that you have after your kick. Also, check out your opponent actions and reactions after you kick at him and if you hit him, he will think twice about charging into another one. Roundhouse/front kicks can be over powered easily by simple movements. If you can prove me wrong, than please do so. Roundhouse kicks are thrown alot more because of how easy they are to throw. I seen some streetfighters throw some pretty crappy ones and actually done some damage with them lol. Side kicks damage output is twice as high IMO.
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#226474 - 01/30/06 11:38 AM Re: SIDEKICKS [Re: jamestkdkungfu]
jamestkdkungfu Offline
Member

Registered: 01/28/06
Posts: 113
sidekicks are not practiced nearly enough in olmpic taekwondo mainly in sparring is what I was saying and people should try it and people may do better on tornoments that have a hard time turning there back on an opponent(its always seemed like a bad idea to me but i try to use them)
SIDEKICK=AWSOME sorry about the grammer i need to learn how to spell

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#226475 - 01/30/06 12:11 PM Re: SIDEKICKS [Re: jamestkdkungfu]
Subedei Offline
Member

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 479
Sorry, I had an unintentional 'not' in there which may have made it confusing, or perhaps not.

I assumed the side kick in question was what we call the "old style" side kick. This is generally thrown from a back stance with the rear leg by pivoting that side forward as you'd do with a rear leg roundhouse.

I'm citing the multitude of other side kick variations that capitalize on forward, linear motion.

'Skip/hop' sidekick generally thrown from a riding horse stance in which the rear leg is pulled into the lead leg in a kind of skipping or hopping motion before the kick is thrown with front. Linear.

'Step behind' sidekick in which the rear foot crosses the lead. Front leg distance closing kick and linear.

'Turning' sidekick in which the body turns backwards pivoting on the heel to a position similar to that from which a step behind sidekick is thrown. I'd say linear since the turn doesn't really count. Criticising this kick for "turning your back to your opponent" has always seemed rather silly to me. The turn should be so rapid as to actually be faster than most other side kick variants, it's supposed to be thrown as a counterattack during your opponents attack thus negating his counterattacking options as he's already in motion AND it's approaching from an angle that's really a lot harder to counter than most other kicks. How are you in danger throwing it? Linear.

'Stepping, turning' sidekick. Distance closing step added before turning side kick, rather confusing. Linear.

'back kick' side kick. turn to the back and thrown kick while truly facing away from your opponent, I've never been at all fond of this kick. Linear

'jumping/flying' side kick. Step and jump version of the 'old style' sidekick, circular, as per your argument.

'push' sidekick. Done by simply bringing the front leg up into a chamber position and kicking out with it. Very little power compared to other side kicks, generally used to get your opponent away from you, linear.


Edited by Subedei (01/30/06 12:13 PM)

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#226476 - 01/31/06 07:51 PM Re: SIDEKICKS [Re: Subedei]
jamestkdkungfu Offline
Member

Registered: 01/28/06
Posts: 113
I ment both I didnt know what to call it because it was never taught to me at taekwondo but at kindai

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#226477 - 01/31/06 11:09 PM Re: SIDEKICKS [Re: jamestkdkungfu]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
James you make a good point.

I have seen only 2 effective styles of sparring for olympic sparring. One is the flashy style with spins and turns, which my current insturctor teaches to all the elite athletes and the other is a style taught by my former teacher who was a Pan American champ in TKD.

My former instructor keeps it real simple and real basic, he uses his lead leg and throws thrusting side kicks at chest and face level. And his rear leg for round kicks. He rarely does a back kick, he prefers not to turn his back.

My current teacher is really tall around 6'1 and my former teacher is really short around 5'4. Both clearly are WTF style practitioners, the kicks they do are completely the same, just one favors the simple kicks over the new flashy ones. Both use upright stances but my former tecahs likes to work from the inside becuase he is short, but his thrusting side kick is very powerful, he keeps himself very limber constantly stretching. All his kicks are basic, he doesn't throw any of the doubles or tripples that are popular in the sport right now. He does plenty of combinations just keeps them basic. Oh and he loves throwing the classic lead leg hook kick to the face followed by the side kick to the chest. Something you never see in WTF competition.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#226478 - 02/01/06 10:47 AM Re: SIDEKICKS [Re: TeK9]
Subedei Offline
Member

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 479
My biggest problem with olympic style is the bouncing, what's with the bouncing?

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#226479 - 02/01/06 01:16 PM Re: SIDEKICKS [Re: Subedei]
blascun2k Offline
Member

Registered: 10/02/05
Posts: 73
Loc: Dallas, TX USA
Quote:

My biggest problem with olympic style is the bouncing, what's with the bouncing?




Its kinda like foot work is to boxing, keeps you moving and ready to evade a strike, or move in with your own if you see an opening, or at least thats my thought...could be wrong.
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#226480 - 02/01/06 02:28 PM Re: SIDEKICKS [Re: Subedei]
jamestkdkungfu Offline
Member

Registered: 01/28/06
Posts: 113
Quote:

My biggest problem with olympic style is the bouncing, what's with the bouncing?



alot of people bounce keeping there toes on the ground but some take there whole foot of the ground which is bad if they do that kick them evertime they bounce up they wont react as good

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#226481 - 02/01/06 05:38 PM Re: SIDEKICKS [Re: Eveal]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
I think your trying to get into a discussion in which one is having. My question to subdei was if he noticed how some TKD or MA practitioners claim they do the side kick but in actuality they are really doing round kicks.

Ex: have you ever seen a Billy Blanks TaeBo video workout? Those people are throwing round kicks but they look like side kicks because of the position the foot is in, they are either using the foots swords edge or the heel, but the chamber is coming from the bent knee. In other words right before they kick, thier foot is touching thier butts. If they were doing real side kicks thier foot would not be chambered in that manner. Get it?

Noone disputed what you said, infact I'd say everyone agrees with it. SIde kicks are powerful, more powerful that round kicks and front kicks.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#226482 - 02/02/06 09:11 PM Re: SIDEKICKS [Re: TeK9]
jamestkdkungfu Offline
Member

Registered: 01/28/06
Posts: 113
i know what u mean i do those too but the chmabering sidekick love it to death

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#226483 - 02/03/06 04:12 AM Re: SIDEKICKS [Re: Subedei]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Just as James and Blascun has said.

It helps to stay mobile to retreat and attack.
Helps build momentum for those advance kicks and kicking combos.

But some competitors over do it, I mean you should never let your entire foot leave the floor unless your actually moving the entire body. Those who bounce lifting the balls of the foot off the canvas are in for a rude awakening. I suppose they don’t know how vulnerable they are yet to attacks.

I remember when I was a green belt and had just learned the back kick (spinning back kick in WTF style) I was sparring against my brother and he was bouncing so high off the matt. I was a newb at that time and had no knowledge or concept of attack strategies. So I just attack with a back kick, I manage to catch him on the way up and he flew around 6 feel back and landed on his butt. It looked so cool, I bet others assumed I had the strength of Hercules; even I was a little amazed at my strength. Until we figured out what really happened.

The bouncing is done mostly by those who are in a horse stance who keep their upper body at a 90 degree angle; I prefer to use more of a forward stance, like a boxer keeping my upper body at 45 degrees. I like to rock on my knees a bit to give the illusion that I am bounce…well techniquely I’m bouncing from the knees rather than the heels. But its safer.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#226484 - 02/04/06 08:01 AM Re: SIDEKICKS [Re: TeK9]
dicen Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/06
Posts: 57
yes everyone agrees the sidekick is a powerful kick but in sparring it is easily countered by either moving out of the way of it or by rolling it off your body there by adding his momentum into your own parachagi (sp).

Now in a self defense situation a side kick can be used to cause alot of dmg but then again everyone knows that :P

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#226485 - 02/06/06 12:42 AM Re: SIDEKICKS [Re: dicen]
nowayaswaylee Offline
Member

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 29
Loc: Washington
sidekicks are personlly my fav kick
in sparring you just have to set it up.
if your opp always backs up when you sidekick
over slide your slide when you sidekick and catch im with that
Punch high, sidekick mid
it takes awhile to get good with sidekick but it is worth it!

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#226486 - 02/06/06 08:42 PM Re: SIDEKICKS [Re: Subedei]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Quote:

My biggest problem with olympic style is the bouncing, what's with the bouncing?





I've been thinking about this, the bouncing and the foot work is what distinguishes the new from the old. It isn't the overall difference but it's part of why the newer kicks are able to be done faster. The bouncing gives momment to attack particularly in combinations. The modern way of executing kicks using the hip as your power soucrce and the short stances that allow a forward moment it what makes different from the basic way of practicing kicks.

For instance if you were to a combination of kicks using alternate foot work for: round kick, round kick, axe kick.

round kick, round kick, back kick.

round kick, round kick, nara bum(turning in step round kick)


You would be able to see the difference between the old way of doing these which is more of a flat fooded way. And the new way which is used for WTF sparring. the bouncing isn't nessassary for defense or counter attacks only when moving forward.

So the old way of kicking is slower, more powerful but you telegraph more.

The new way the kicks are disguised more, they are faster, more mobile, versatile but with less power.

It's harder to learn the new way of doing kicks than it is the old way. I started traditional tkd first then when to sport tkd, took me 3 months to learn the basic kicks again.

Out of the four basic kicks: Front, Round, Side, Back.
The hardest to learn in the new style is the round kick.

In the old style of TKD the side kick is probably the hardest to learn.

I could explain why, but the only way a person can really know is by actually doing it.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#226487 - 02/06/06 10:37 PM Bouncing [Re: TeK9]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
I have found that the bouncing is individually specific. Some bounce high which I have seen can work against you as you can become a target when too high. Light movement of feet back and forth, shifty of balance and weight is the way I see some doing it. Others I see stand still and are very calculative; always watching.

You don't have to bounce to be quick or to move. Short shuffles back, forward or to the side work just as effectively. You move like you have something between your legs that is holding them in one position. You can't move them further apart nor can you move them closer. Short shuffling is very successful. Quick steps to the side or on angles work well too.

Bouncing can help hide what you are going to do but only so long till somebody figures you out ... we are of course creatures of habit. There are other ways of doing this as well such as kicks such as cut kicks, attacking spin return kicks, fakes, etc. You almost need to treat each person you are up against differently because if you get stuck doing the same stuff ... again you will be easily figured out.
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"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#226488 - 02/07/06 02:09 AM Re: Bouncing [Re: Dereck]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
D I was refferning to shuffling and small movements when I refer to bouncing.

The only time I do a bouncing motion is when I am attacking. This is because you have to in order to maintain speed. The old way you dont have to bounce in order to attack, but you don't have that speed.

When I spar I sit still because I basically am a counter fighter, I rarely attack first. Have you ever done a cut kick without bouncing? It is very difficult and feels unnatural. To make sure a cut kick is done with the lead leg and is meant to calculate the distance, nullify an opponents attack or, set up a combination attack of your own. But it's generally not done with power, and speed is needed in order to use it. This speed I get from the bounce.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#226489 - 02/07/06 02:58 PM Re: Bouncing [Re: TeK9]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
I prefer the cut kick starting with the back leg. I don't use it to judge distance such as yourself but throw it out like I'm going to round house and then almost like a double but with a fake ... slam them with the other leg ... and with power. With this type of cut kick I can generate good power and speed and I'd have to say it is my favorite kick of all.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#226490 - 02/08/06 06:39 AM Re: Bouncing [Re: Dereck]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Oh my bad, Dereck, I thought you meant lead leg cut kick, thats the one I was referring to. Yea, I don't need to bounce when throwing the rear leg cut kick, just for the lead leg one.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#226491 - 02/08/06 11:52 AM Re: Bouncing [Re: TeK9]
ikklehen Offline
Member

Registered: 07/23/05
Posts: 115
Loc: U.K.
I'm little and light so I kinda do abit of bounce but lots of very small skippy running type moves. Then stand still some times. I like to keep the opponent confused. Then my guards change but still cover in a stand off. It seems to work for me.
I like side kicks, but back kicks and reverse turning hooking kicks are good for me when I get caught up in the mangle! But I have alot to learn yet, just getting comfy with some techniques before they become stronger and faster.
Though none of this would be any good without a brain!!! xxx
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#226492 - 02/08/06 12:26 PM Re: SIDEKICKS [Re: TeK9]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
Quote:

My biggest problem with olympic style is the bouncing, what's with the bouncing?




I myself have radically changed my views on bouncing as I have progressed in TKD, indeed I have kind of see-sawed. By the way, my answer will be in regard to Chang-hon TKD.

When I began TKD, I never used bouncing, because I felt it got in the way of my sparring. My kicks were not particularly developed, fast or powerful, and I certainly was not that flexible, so bouncing was one more thing to worry about. It is difficult to think about footwork, when you're not sure what to do once you have entered range.

After a year of sparring, I had started to not bounce, but I was certainly very mobile. I would almost dance around my opponent, using side-kicks, which (if I do say so myself) have always been very good. The problem was, that many people would be able to take me out by charging down my side-kick and overwhelming me with punches (punches allowed to the head remember). I had alot of speed and was generally pretty fit, so I coulod go on doing this movement throughout the bout.

I then went through a phase of stopping this movement completely. I felt that there was no point in moving if it was not absolutely necessary. Unfortunately, as a quick sparrer this seems a bit silly, since I should use my speed, rather than ignoring it by staying sedentary.

My style now, is a mostly countering style. I move a fair amount, but would not call it bouncing, I am just trying to fool my opponent and make him misjudge the fighting range, and thus being able to hit him with little movement. I find this allows me to stay strong- I have a much wider stance than are found in WTF sparring, indeed it is closer to a boxer's- while retaining my speed. A comprimise if you will.

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#226493 - 02/08/06 05:21 PM Re: SIDEKICKS [Re: Supremor]
Seraph Offline
Stranger

Registered: 02/07/06
Posts: 4
Loc: Florida, USA
I generally bounce only when speed is necessary to initiate the first kick in a combo, if my opponent is fully offensive, I generally stay fairly flat footed and look for a counter opportunity. If It's necessary for me to go on the offensive then I definitely start bouncing to make sure that I will have enough speed to be able to make contact with the initial technique.
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"Faith is confidence in that which cannot be seen"

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#226494 - 02/08/06 05:26 PM Re: SIDEKICKS [Re: Seraph]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
I don't have any problems myself if somebody wants to bounce a bit as long as they don't leave the ground. BUT always make sure that you are not taking an extra step when doing so to get off a technique. This extra step can become habit and many people can read this and react faster to it then no step.
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