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#226380 - 01/29/06 11:58 AM dynamic tension in kata
kibadachi1 Offline
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Registered: 04/29/05
Posts: 74
Loc: coble
why do we use dynamic tension on certain movements in kata ?

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#226381 - 01/29/06 01:14 PM Re: dynamic tension in kata [Re: kibadachi1]
jamesd Offline
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Registered: 07/06/05
Posts: 145
Loc: Essex,England
Hi Kiba,

Dynamic tension is a way of conditioning the body to withstand strikes, by contracting our muscles and combining this with deep energetic breathing we can also gain internal health benefits, a bit like an internal massage, by doing this new blood is pushed into the internal organs also we're training the body to go from relaxed to tensed which is vital in transferring power, regards,

James.
_________________________
www.hardfasthandway.com

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#226382 - 01/30/06 07:44 AM Re: dynamic tension in kata [Re: jamesd]
Ronin1966 Offline
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Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello James:

<<Dynamic tension is a way of conditioning the body to withstand strikes

Is the ultimate end of your idea, (this idea) to withstand any/all strikes ? Is there such a thing as silly ~melodrama~ in that regard?

<<by contracting our muscles and combining this with deep energetic breathing we can also gain internal health benefits

Specifically such as?

Which is the "critical" aspect IYP... the contraction or the release of that contraction? What value of the latter

J

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#226383 - 01/30/06 10:42 AM Re: dynamic tension in kata [Re: Ronin1966]
harlan Offline
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Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Ronin...do you have an answer to the original question?

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#226384 - 01/30/06 11:11 AM Re: dynamic tension in kata [Re: Ronin1966]
Gavin Offline
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Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Hello Ronin:

Quote:

What value of the latter




The value of the release of contraction is to allow the weapon (fist, elbow, foot, etc)...to be delivered unimpeded from the contraction of the body that caused the acceleration of said weapon in the first place. Dynamic tension trains the body to move from a states of tension and relaxation within a split second. It also trains the body to use its entire muscular system in unisonous as opposed to in isolation which many conditioning and weight training drills.

With regards to the internal health benefits James already stated about the internal massage. Anyone familiar with the benefits of an external massage should be able to figure out the benefits of an internal massage caused by the contraction and relaxation of internal system.
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#226385 - 01/30/06 02:34 PM Re: dynamic tension in kata [Re: kibadachi1]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
good question.
It's for learning how to store 'potential energy' within your body. when you stretch or tourque a rubber-band...you are storing potential energy within the band. during an event, the idea is your potential energy is constantly being wound and released...the release charges your next potential.
Doing this slow-motion in kata (or any technique) eventually leads to being able to do it full-speed and without thinking.

think of one of those things...ummm...ah hell here's a pic, it's easier lol:
http://www.officeplayground.com/jupiter.html
http://www.geocities.com/k_pullo/potentia.htm

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#226386 - 01/31/06 04:58 AM Re: dynamic tension in kata [Re: Ronin1966]
jamesd Offline
Member

Registered: 07/06/05
Posts: 145
Loc: Essex,England
Hi Ronin,

Cant see any value in your post because you haven't actually contributed anything, just nit picked!

I said
Quote:

<<Dynamic tension is a way of conditioning the body to withstand strikes


and you said
Quote:

Is the ultimate end of your idea, (this idea) to withstand any/all strikes ? Is there such a thing as silly ~melodrama~ in that regard?



Actually my ultimate goal is to not be struck at all, if i'm not there in the first place i won't get hit! regards,

James.
_________________________
www.hardfasthandway.com

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#226387 - 01/31/06 05:03 AM Re: dynamic tension in kata [Re: jamesd]
shoshinkan Offline
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Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
For what its worth I used to train sanchin - hard. After a couple of years I could withstand alot more punishment withoubt a doubt.

It certainly works IMO however I elect not to train the Sanchin hard these days as it essentially conflicts with my core Shorin Ryu principles if im being fussy.

however I do train it 'soft' with great results and whilst im not getting the iron shirt benefits externally I believe it is a very healthy excersise for internal strength and ki development and flow, among other things.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#226388 - 01/31/06 09:11 AM Re: dynamic tension in kata [Re: harlan]
Ronin1966 Offline
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Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Harlan:

<<Ronin...do you have an answer to the original question?

The answer is "no"... I cannot say why he does anything, as don't know the ~gentleman~! Now if he'd asked why ~I~ (or you) used this dynamic tenshin, well that would be a different question

If that had been asked, perhaps the vein-popping which some demonstrate (calling it dynamic tension) might perhaps be circus, silly melodrama? Or perhaps it is not the tightening which is the better benefit, but rather the letting go, the UN-contracting which is of fundamental value to the practice? Consider its pathetically easy to be tight, too easy, but how many can be supple without some extraordinary efforts I wonder?!?!?

Dynamic tenshin meaning contraction and uncontracting will generate the adrenal response and trigger the lovely horemones which I propose obviously need to be explored specifically in order to not be overwhelmed by them in intense serious/sudden situations. Not magic, not rocket science I would think, but I am puzzled by those who go over the top doing so and wonder the value of their eye bulging, vein-popping corinary on a stick expression... Is there ~fundamental value~ in what seems excessive demonstration?

Can ~dynamic~ be too much? Your turn...
J

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#226389 - 01/31/06 01:53 PM Re: dynamic tension in kata [Re: Ronin1966]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Well thats clear that one up.....*hears the sound of a drive by*
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www.SHIKON.COM
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#226390 - 01/31/06 02:38 PM Re: dynamic tension in kata [Re: jamesd]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
james, thats the thing...dynamic tension (as in Sanchin) isn't used for body conditioning against strikes. that was a mis-interpretation from the post-WW2 way of doing things...vein popping tension and forced blood flow. while the sensei walks around and 'stress tests' your structure using a shinai. The good 'ol blood in the urine days....

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#226391 - 01/31/06 08:49 PM Re: dynamic tension in kata [Re: Ed_Morris]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Ed:

Can I use that and/or quote you..."The good 'ol blood in the urine days...." I mean ???

I cannot say with absolute certainty that I am right in my contentions, but nobody has explained decently well the need (for lack of better terminology) the melodrama dynamics tension of the type and kind you & I are speaking about...

Merely my impression, i could easily be mistaken,
J

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#226392 - 01/31/06 11:35 PM Re: dynamic tension in kata [Re: Ronin1966]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
I think the problem is with your terminology 'melodrama dynamics'. it's kind of insulting to think people training this way are doing so for theatrics. think a little wider.

I believe strenuous dynamic tension is unnecessary, and although not 100% proven either way (I've read studies on this very question in the past, here's an online one: http://www.olemiss.edu/orgs/karate/sanchin.html ) I have simply chosen to train with tension but without straining, for my own reasons reguardless of the inconclusive findings.
I will say this, people who I have trained with had some health anomolies which may or may not have been directly or indirectly attributed to the straining: hemmoroids, blood in stool, severe 'pinched nerves'. all I know is, around the time our dojo stopped training Sanchin like that, no such anomolies were reported. My POV is not scientific...it's just my hunch that it's not worth it.

as far as 'conditioning' ...there are two types (I have experienced) training in sanchin. the strengthening thru tension aspect...and the outer hardening thru desensitization (body getting hit, slapped, wacked with a stick, etc).

both have their separate and/or combined benefits...just depends what you are going for. one thing is absolutely true, if you train this way, know what you are doing and why...especially the person GIVING the external conditioning.

for what it's worth.

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#226393 - 02/01/06 07:02 AM Re: dynamic tension in kata [Re: Ed_Morris]
jamesd Offline
Member

Registered: 07/06/05
Posts: 145
Loc: Essex,England
Hi All,

For obvious reasons I completely aggree that there is no need to perform dynamic tension until all your blood vessels burst and i've never practiced it this way, i believe i get more benefit INTERNALLY by practicing this movement but i do believe that if practiced correctly you will gain EXTERNAL conditionining, like i said before my aim is to avoid being hit by using BODY EVASION but i've been in situations where i've been attacked and my physical conditioning has helped me survive without to much damage, i'm speaking from my own personal experiences and i respect your views may vary, regards,

James.
_________________________
www.hardfasthandway.com

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#226394 - 02/01/06 10:03 PM Re: dynamic tension in kata [Re: Gavin]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Gavin:

THough I do not understand your latest response, at least this one I think I understand...

<<The value of the release of contraction

Does IYO/E this release and comparative hyper acceleration if you will... is that literally expressed within kata? If so that would clearly show a turtle-hare, extremely fast-very slow dynamic which unfortunately I've never encountered... not saying it doesn't happen merely never encountered that type of "light switch" from tense and slow to explosive fast in the manner of a switch going on then off, then on, then off, etc.

Is that the rhythm you mean when speaking of this action?


<<It also trains the body to use its entire muscular system in unisonous as opposed to in isolation

Unconscious... respectfully don't beleive I agree with that.
I propose nothing BUT conscious, active awareness rather than oblivious, or unfocused, etc. And you certainly could be right too...

What happens if the dynamic tension we're speaking of has a subset of isolation in the manner of weight lifting though a poor example for our uses? What happens if we misunderstood the whole body effect for the goal rather than the smaller parts which comprise in total the tension most comprehend???

<internal health benefits... internal massage.

I don't disagree with your general perspective, yet want to pin down in a MEANINGFUL way what too many (IMNSHV in my not so humble view) solely use cliche & platitudes. When you, I speak of internal health benefits... what PRECISELY are we speaking of... exactly???

What occurs on the surface in masaage is fine indeed as far as it goes but that would not easily explain what happens if/when moving the intestines arouind a bit? Or how compressing the internal obliques, the rhomboids, etc (choose the musculature of choice) would effect an internal organ in any manner...

Help flesh this out some more, its an idea used often, how can we pin down some of the specifics beyond the generic ~massage the internal organs~ (ie how so) and so forth.

Merely asking aloud,
J

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#226395 - 02/02/06 08:50 AM Re: dynamic tension in kata [Re: Ronin1966]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Quote:

Does IYO/E this release and comparative hyper acceleration if you will... is that literally expressed within kata? If so that would clearly show a turtle-hare, extremely fast-very slow dynamic which unfortunately I've never encountered... not saying it doesn't happen merely never encountered that type of "light switch" from tense and slow to explosive fast in the manner of a switch going on then off, then on, then off, etc.




In the way we practice our kata I'd say that the hyper acceleration (I like that term!) is present. We are constantly moving from a state of fast explosive movement to slow relaxed movement to dynamic tension style of movement. Our system is based on very fast explosive movements combined with evasive foot work and soft parrying. Its the whole hard/soft thing that the Goju lot go on about. To be completely honest though the contraction/release of contraction was probably a bit off topic and in relation to actual kata, but more the preparation of the body for this release....which I feel dynamic tension helps prepare it for.

Quote:

Unconscious... respectfully don't beleive I agree with that.
I propose nothing BUT conscious, active awareness rather than oblivious, or unfocused, etc. And you certainly could be right too...

What happens if the dynamic tension we're speaking of has a subset of isolation in the manner of weight lifting though a poor example for our uses? What happens if we misunderstood the whole body effect for the goal rather than the smaller parts which comprise in total the tension most comprehend???





LOL, I actually used the word "unisonous" not "unconscious"....I won't get onto the "unconscious" thing coz I can waffle on that subject at Olympic levels!

Looking at weight lifting which will actually provide a few answers to the benefits dynamic tension on the muscle fibre development caused by this sort of excercise. Its not really my field of expertise but I believe that dynamic tension yields similiar benefits to isometric training...think one of our resident strength experts would be better qualified to answer that one.

I agree with the point about if one of the movement is incorrect then it will through this whole body usuage off, but isn't that the same problem with incorrect form in anything?

Quote:


Help flesh this out some more, its an idea used often, how can we pin down some of the specifics beyond the generic ~massage the internal organs~ (ie how so) and so forth.




Cool....I'll give it a go, but I still in my first year of shiatsu studies so precise physiological stuff this ain't going to be. The purpose of a massage is to stimulate the flow of fresh blood through the body and aid the elimination of toxins. The deep breathing done with dynamic tension also increase the oxygen supply to the blood which is always good, it does good things by encouraging some celluar level thingys!

There is a shiatsu technique that involves the massage of the digestive tract...which basically aids in the digestive process and guarantees you a trip to the toilet within about 20 mins of doing it. Just hunching up the shoulders as hard as you can while taking a deep breath in, followed by a sharp exhale and sudden relaxing of the shoulders feels great and really relaxes you. And it is from relaxation that we gain true power.

With regards to the first comment it was basically hinting that yours was a drive by posting just to cause a bit of trouble....for which I apologise.

Gav
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www.SHIKON.COM
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#226396 - 02/02/06 05:42 PM Re: dynamic tension in kata [Re: kibadachi1]
kibadachi1 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/29/05
Posts: 74
Loc: coble
some good ideas i'm hearing but what about the bunkai application of the dynamic tension movement compared to that same movement without dynamic tension, i've herd that the dynamic tension movements mean that the movements are blocks ?any ideas on the application of a move for example wrist lock or throw that are to be taken out of dynamic tension movements

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#226397 - 02/02/06 06:51 PM Re: dynamic tension in kata [Re: kibadachi1]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
In Goju at least, generally, dynamic tension is on linear and angled movements of the arm (regardless if it's a defensive or offensive interpretation)...the circular movements are with no such tension... but are not completely loose either.

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#226398 - 02/02/06 07:03 PM Re: dynamic tension in kata [Re: Ed_Morris]
kibadachi1 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/29/05
Posts: 74
Loc: coble
why ? what is it about the angled and linear movements that they deserve tension compared to circular movements ? do you ever use it with kicks

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#226399 - 02/10/06 03:19 AM Re: dynamic tension in kata [Re: jamesd]
ButterflyPalm Offline
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Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Quote:

For obvious reasons I completely aggree that there is no need to perform dynamic tension until all your blood vessels burst




But what IS the correct amount of tension? if there is such a thing. I'll come back to this later.

I am going over old ground here, but, first, sanchin or any other dynamic tension forms is, at an advanced level, a chi gung excersize form. The sequence should be to develop an awareness of circulation of chi in your body first by training separately in chi development excersize; THEN this awareness is CONSCIOUSLY APPLIED when doing the form.

When doing the form, on the in-breath, the chi is 'pulled' into the inner part of the body; on the out-breath, the chi is 'pushed' or more like spreading it out all the way to the skin. You will actually feel a wave-like movement spreading from the inner body to the outer; much like the rippling effect of a ripple on water. It just have to be experienced. I feel completely 'relaxed' and no feeling of strain although there is a good degree of muscular tension throughout. I can only describe it as 'body meditation'

It is therefore this outer-inner-inner-outer movement of the chi in coordination with the in-out breathing pattern together with the alternating tension / partial relaxation of the muscular-skeletal structure that is the core of dynamic tension practice. Skeletal? yes, you will be aware of a tensive squeezing of the bones on the in-breath purely from the movement of the chi alone.

So how much tension and relaxation?

The required amount will only be known to you because if you tense too much, you lose completely the pulling-in movement of the chi on the in-breath and if too little, you will not feel the tensive squeezing of the chi on the skeletal structure. On the relaxation phase, if you let go too much, the continuity of maintaining an awareness of the chi is reduced as this awareness is at its highest when just the correct amount of tension is maintained. This continuity should not be broken and is to be maintained throughout; and so there is no way it will work if you do it the vein-popping way; albeit, like all excersizes on a purely physical level, some muscular strenghtening benefit can of course be derived.

Quote:

i believe i get more benefit INTERNALLY by practicing this movement but i do believe that if practiced correctly you will gain EXTERNAL conditionining.James.




Yes, there is no separating the internal / external here as whatever happens on the inner body will spread to the outer and the inward tension of the outer muscular structure will create the 'potential energy' needed to repeat the cycle.
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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#226400 - 02/10/06 08:10 AM Re: dynamic tension in kata [Re: shoshinkan]
Ronin1966 Offline
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Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Shoshin:

Thank you for your contribution....

Does Shorinryu (in whatever flavor) as you understand it have a Sanchin kata of their own??? What of comparable or parallel material(s)? I've been bombarded elsewhere with the ~Chinkuchi~ word as being the Shorin expression of the Sanchin idea...

Yet none unfortunately were able to articulate the SPECIFIC what & why in the manner of say a front kick. Both presumedly are fundamental technique (assuming your art possesses the chinkuchi idea) yet when asked to be as articulate, as descriptive of this "exotic" terminology most to date are badly unable...

Perhaps today will be different ?

When you speak of "internal strength" how does the tension strengthen internally precisely??? Both what exactly and how (or why) for that matter? You've got isometric (isotonic -always get the two confused) on the surface of the body intra & inter costal musculature around and between the ribs... but how does contracture "strengthen" internally exactly???



J

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#226401 - 02/10/06 08:57 AM Re: dynamic tension in kata [Re: jamesd]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello James:

Apparently far more work is required on my part if that is all you took from my genuine questions! I shall attempt to do better...

<<Actually my ultimate goal is to not be struck at all

As you perceive it can/does the dynamic tension become essentially melodrama in many cases??? Phrased another way is there a "middle ground" in terms of how this absorbing strikes (via dynamic tension) might occur? Even training severely, I have meaningful concerns over taking someones full-force blows in a blase manner which seems to be the core purpose of the iron shirt version of dynamic tension... Can I do it certainly... but is it wise/intelligent to ignore the potential power someone might possess seems dangerous hubris of the highest order... to my thinking at least.

Does that perspective, that view make better sense???

J

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#226402 - 02/10/06 11:21 AM Re: dynamic tension in kata [Re: Gavin]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Gavin:

You badly, badly misperceived my intent with your analogy re: shooting.

If I perceive the method you use correctly it has a... staccato rhythm if you will to the fast-slow, fast-slow dynamic correct? A different speed/timing for the slow-dynamic than is used for the fast components correct?

What do you make of the single rhythm, the 4-4 speed consistantly throughout a particular dynamic tension kata? Many Uechi practitioners for example seem to have a far, far faster contraction cycle than their ~Goju cousins~? I was curious of your perspective as to that curious difference (ie can the contraction be done (& practiced for that matter) at combat speed)???

<<the contraction/release of contraction was probably a bit off topic and in relation to actual kata,

We read the thread header differently... but not a problem. The details IMO are what matter... I cannot use merely the "blanket" of ~dynamic tension~ without helping explain, examine the components, aspects of the bigger idea. If we only go that far (ie barely-merely surface level) things become clice, platitudes dangerously easily.

<<preparation of the body for this release....

Radical/heretical query...do you think the "release" has inherent power within it? Most focus exclusively on the hard parts, what I call the ~dramatic~... anybody examine the ~other end~ of the action with the same vigor & systemic scrutiny??? I hear what you mean re: showing benefit via tension from the weight lifting parallels. I wonder given the physicality of peoples from the past, I wonder if the need for such an exercise was as great then, if at all???

<<it does good things by encouraging some celluar level thingys!

More O2, more blood so far I'm with you!

<<There is a shiatsu technique that involves the massage of the digestive tract...

Which triggering combatively would be baaaaaaaaaaaaaad!!! You can definately move things around literally manually, but the dynamic tension to do so??? If so now we're heading into the Hatha-Yoga and the assorted "locks" they use to move internal viscera around.

<<Just hunching up the shoulders as hard

Yup, which is why the release end to me at least is far more interesting, but almost never articulated in a deep way... tense, anybody can do tense... and see-feel tengible "power". But what about the comparitively (so called) soft-side with the release!!!! Ever seen anybody describe the subtle parts in a martial context as they always do the "hard"???? Pages and pages of materials always the dramatic hard pieces, but ever seen the soft described in nearly the same depth????

J

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