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#226210 - 01/28/06 06:35 PM A distinction between Odds, Luck, and Skill.
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
To start, let me say that I dont know where Im going with this but some things on the forums have me a little agitated. So, I decided to post something about it to get it off my chest.

On the forums there are numerous posts about hypothetical situations. Multiple attackers, weapons, and nightime attacks are common themes to these posts. I like these kinds of posts. Sometimes. I like to be able to imagine whatever situation someone has dreamt up and find a safe logical approach to it. Or at least give an opinion. An opinion that is based on my experience but also based on the facts. The odds. Not everything that is experienced is a good approach to things. For example I practiced Ax kick for years when I did my TKD training but never would I suggest anyone attempt to use it in a combat situation. Thats whats bothering me. People here(some not all) often make suggestions that havent been tested. Or suggestions that worked for them one time in a situation. Just because it worked once doesnt mean that it was the best thing to do, or that it will work ever again. No one is really as good as they think they are. They're either better or far worse than the perception that they hold for themselves yet they willingly dispense knowledge that may get others hurt or give them false ideas.

I guess this is just a cry out so that people will think about what they are saying and how they are saying it. When you say things here it is available to over 11,000 people all over the world. Before you give an example from your own experience take an honest account of the event and whether it was skill or dumb luck that got you by. Be honest about your opposition. Was he good or was he average? Maybe lower? Think about whether or not you are about to get an impressionable person hurt before you suggest any old tactic to gaurd your life with.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#226211 - 01/29/06 08:42 AM Re: A distinction between Odds, Luck, and Skill. [Re: Chen Zen]
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1737
Loc: Miami, Fl.
Hi, Cory.
First, let me say that I understand you being irked. Posts that recommend a triple/backward/spinning/jumping kick as the end-all, be-all for self defense sometimes leave me wondering what comic book world the poster lives in. But that's because I'm failing to see the positive in the situation, which is this: No sooner do these posts appear than they get ripped apart by the experienced, knowledgeable folks here. And the reasons why it's getting ripped apart are fully aired and discussed. So by the time all is said and done, those that are here to learn are totally disabused of false notions about questionable techniques. Considering the amount of folks that read these forums, that's a fair number of people that got the word. So a lot of good comes from even the off the wall posts, IMO. It's just hard on your patience sometimes.
_________________________
Just when you think something is foolproof, they come out with a new and improved type of fool.

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#226212 - 01/29/06 10:09 AM Re: A distinction between Odds, Luck, and Skill. [Re: MAGon]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
I remember back in the early days of the forum. Especially when John Kogas joined. Man we use to constantly rip on people, then we both became mods and had to grow up. I love my job here and this site but sometimes I wish I could just let it rip like I used to. None-the-less you are right about one thing: With nearly 12,000 members someone is fixing to rip on ya. 12,000. Thats ten times the membership when I first joined. I think we were around 1,100 then. 3 years later and were better than ever.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#226213 - 01/29/06 12:26 PM Re: A distinction between Odds, Luck, and Skill. [Re: MAGon]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
MAGon -

Spot on, brother. I wince when I read some of the questions/responses we see here, but for the most part, the other members here are quick to pounce on BS when they see it.

I actively encourage this. You and Chen (and several others) have always been ones to right other's wrongs, so to speak. I thank you and hope that the other members will follow your examples of (mostly humane ) re-education, when neccesary.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#226214 - 01/29/06 12:40 PM Re: A distinction between Odds, Luck, and Skill. [Re: MattJ]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
LOL I appreciate that. I've always tried to do what I can to call it as I see it. Its good to see that the Administration is all for (mostly humane) re-education.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#226215 - 01/29/06 01:04 PM Re: A distinction between Odds, Luck, and Skill. [Re: MattJ]
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1737
Loc: Miami, Fl.
Matt: Thank you, kind sir! And thanks for making a point with Chen before I brought it up: Yessir, we've all grown up over time. In spite of trying hard to forget that I stooped to that, I plead guilty to developing a taste for troll baiting Razwell there for a crazy week or so (*Wince* To this day I don't know what got into me!). But the fact of the matter is that we've evolved into tearing garbage theories apart, but nicely.
And that's a good thing. You can "Hate the sin" without eviscerating the "sinner" (Although I admit I miss being tickled pink when reading one of our colleague's very eloquent parting shot: "You're an idiot!" ).
_________________________
Just when you think something is foolproof, they come out with a new and improved type of fool.

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#226216 - 01/29/06 01:12 PM Re: A distinction between Odds, Luck, and Skill. [Re: MAGon]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Its amazing. I agree. I nearly got kicked off the site at one time for aguing with the entire site. Im also quite sure that Mr.V didnt care to much for me at the time. Since he was pretty much the only moderator. Then I became one myself and grew as a person very much. In the past three years the site has taught me very much about myself and how to deal with people as well. Now I can tell someone to go to hell in such a manner that they look forward to the trip.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#226217 - 01/29/06 01:16 PM Re: A distinction between Odds, Luck, and Skill. [Re: Chen Zen]
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1737
Loc: Miami, Fl.
Quote:

Now I can tell someone to go to hell in such a manner that they look forward to the trip.




I'd never heard that phrase before. I'll be sure to remember and use it!
But I still miss "You're an idiot!"
_________________________
Just when you think something is foolproof, they come out with a new and improved type of fool.

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#226218 - 01/29/06 01:19 PM Re: A distinction between Odds, Luck, and Skill. [Re: MAGon]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
That phrase was given to me by a marine. He said that it was the military definition of TACT.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#226219 - 01/30/06 12:15 PM Re: A distinction between Odds, Luck, and Skill. [Re: Chen Zen]
PastTheWall Offline
Member

Registered: 03/13/05
Posts: 104
Loc: London
Good points there, like anything on the internet, take any advice with a "pinch of salt", but also consider the validity and consequences of giving advice. It's a sound concept. Some people do get carried away for whatever reason, I understand your frustration.

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#226220 - 01/30/06 12:35 PM Re: A distinction between Odds, Luck, and Skill. [Re: Chen Zen]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I hate to dirty the water I still say, its not the technique its the when and where. As you mentioned the Axe kick is risky and not a street worthy techinque the way its performed (over the shoulder/head high) in sparring.

But in certain situatons its a sound technique, like when ending a encounter once the guys down on all fours or bent over on one knee covered. (In this prime situation you are behind him & he is staggered, trying to get up) You could risk striking him with your hands, knees, elbow or another kick. But an axe kick to the back of the neck or kidney will drop him like a sack.

In general I agree the axe kick is not a street worthy technique and way too risky, but in the right situation, at the right time, it would work, with, no luck or odds needed. Just a little skill.
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DBAckerson

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#226221 - 01/30/06 04:46 PM Re: A distinction between Odds, Luck, and Skill. [Re: Neko456]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Geez, Neko how did I know SOMEONE was going to bust my chops on the kick mention. Yes it COULD work. What are the odds of it working compared to that of your average jab/right hook? Would you instruct a white belt to use it in defense of himself over a front kick or reverse punch? See where this is going? Just cause it can or may work doesnt mean its going to or should be attempted. Besides what are you doing kicking guys who are down?
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#226222 - 02/01/06 05:17 AM Re: A distinction between Odds, Luck, and Skill. [Re: Chen Zen]
andy4 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/25/06
Posts: 53
Hi Chen Zen.
I can see your valid point about giving people the wrong impression about techniques and when and where to use them.

How ever.I think in "certain situations" the axe kick would and does work but, as you so correctly said, not in every situation. The right technique at the right time.

Just because a man is down doesn't mean he is finished.
One example being boxers often get knocked down or knocked through the ropes.
Then, after a count of ten, they still continue and some times win the fight.

In the scenario Neko described using other techniques might end up in a grappling match.Not the best place to grapple on the streets.
The attacker might be faking or armed but as yet hasnt used his weapon.

If a person attacks another person then the attacker takes the consequences.

Stunning,slowing down or knocking a person off balance might be the first thing to go for.

Then the knockout.

My experience has taught me that knocking an attacker out isnt easy when both fighters are throwing shots.Can be done but difficult.

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#226223 - 02/01/06 07:54 AM Re: A distinction between Odds, Luck, and Skill. [Re: andy4]
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1737
Loc: Miami, Fl.
Quote:

...I think in "certain situations" the axe kick would and does work but, as you so correctly said, not in every situation. The right technique at the right time...




Guys: In a nutshell, that's what it boils down to.
_________________________
Just when you think something is foolproof, they come out with a new and improved type of fool.

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#226224 - 02/01/06 01:28 PM Re: A distinction between Odds, Luck, and Skill. [Re: MAGon]
andy4 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/25/06
Posts: 53
Chen Zen I hope you dont mind me posting this on here. Thanks.

Just to keep this topic going.

Why in this scenario an axe kick or semi axe kick?
and not some other kick? or even other another form of attack?

I think as well as some of the none kata/forms fighting arts , some traditional karate, kung fu and ju jitsu kata's hold some of the answers to these questions.

There are a number of counter attacks that are done from the floor ending in painful and/or injured foot, leg, testicle, face/head and throat damage.

The axe kick can be done with minimum risk of a counter attack.

Could any body come up with any counter techniques from the floor in this given scenario if the axe kick wasnt used?

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#226225 - 02/01/06 01:34 PM Re: A distinction between Odds, Luck, and Skill. [Re: Chen Zen]
andy4 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/25/06
Posts: 53
I used the wrong reply box.

Chen Zen I hope you dont mind me posting this on here. Thanks.

Just to keep this topic going.

Why in this scenario an axe kick or semi axe kick?
and not some other kick? or even other another form of attack?

I think as well as some of the none kata/forms fighting arts , some traditional karate, kung fu and ju jitsu kata's hold some of the answers to these questions.

There are a number of counter attacks that are done from the floor ending in painful and/or injured foot, leg, testicle, face/head and throat damage.

The axe kick can be done with minimum risk of a counter attack.

Could any body come up with any counter techniques from the floor in this given scenario if the axe kick wasnt used?

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#226226 - 02/02/06 12:40 AM Re: A distinction between Odds, Luck, and Skill. [Re: andy4]
RockHard Huy Offline
Member

Registered: 12/30/04
Posts: 65
If he is on the ground, run away :/

(looking at my past 3 post, I am pretty cowardly)
_________________________
"It's ludicrous these mortals even attempt to enter my realm." Mike Tyson

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#226227 - 02/02/06 01:57 PM Re: A distinction between Odds, Luck, and Skill. [Re: andy4]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
The Axe kick is a bigger motion and a winding technique compared to the front kick or striaght punch, it has limited general use and I'm assuming this is why he mentioned it in particular. My scenario made it a prime technique because the body position is optima for good results with it. 1 reason is he can't see it coming, another he maybe expecting something else.

Odds are better using smaller motion (KISS)techniques, I see his point but I see why we train for different situations all if not most techniques have merits.

I also see yours too, some Kung-fu, Silat and (a lot MAs) just because their on the ground doesn't mean it safe to attack them. Some of them fight better from the ground!! IMO.

Zen wrote - Besides what are you doing kicking guys who are down? Because thats how I do it, if I see him still as a threat. You know its true. You R not trying to kill or miam, just take his will away.


Edited by Neko456 (02/02/06 02:02 PM)
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