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#225433 - 01/25/06 02:21 PM 'kick with the legs.....but don't kick the legs'
charlie Offline
Member

Registered: 08/13/04
Posts: 184
Loc: woking, surrey,uk
I have a question which has been on my mind for some while, maybe some of you can give your opinion.

I am currently studying ITF Tae Kwon Do, I have attained yellow belt green tag so far -

Why are you not allowed to attack the legs in sparring?

I find this strange with all the leg work within TKD why it is not allowed and kicks should be waist height or above.

in many martial arts leg attacks are allowed - thai boxing, karate, kick boxing, savate even in the aiki jujutsu I study - surely this is good for modern self defence.

don't get me wrong I love the high kicks, always have but why no low kicks in ITF? is it the same in WTF?

Thanks, Charlie.

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#225434 - 01/25/06 03:28 PM Re: 'kick with the legs.....but don't kick the legs' [Re: charlie]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
ITF TKD or more properly the Chang Hun system does indeed have low kicks. They will appear in BB patterns. Other kicks can certainly be done below the belt. As for the reason no kicks below the belt, there can be many. Sparring rules are decided by the governing bodies. Some reasons for not allowing low kicks in competition is to encourage high kicks which are more difficult, differentiate the competition from other arts or some generic competitions, and a safety factor .

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#225435 - 01/25/06 03:32 PM Re: 'kick with the legs.....but don't kick the legs' [Re: charlie]
schanne Offline
breaks things

Registered: 02/18/04
Posts: 4370
Loc: Woodbury NJ
Ahhh, because your in TKD that's why. When I was in Tang Soo Do it was also looked down upon to leg kick. Anything below the gut was taboo. A matter of fact if we did hit someone in the thigh or shin you would stop and bow, that's the way you spar now...right? Very Korean. After I switched to the MMA school where I'm at now it was a very difficult transition not to show my respect by bowing if contact was made and also getting used to my thigh and shins being rocked. In the Korean dojang we also never clinched, grappled and used our knees like we do now. To be perfectly honest with you I don't accually know why they don't do leg kick like the other styles you mentioned. It could be the military thought to just give one powerful kick to maim the enemy. Maybe they are going for the direct approach vs. trying to break an opponent down by crippling their legs. Remember too,your in a sport, not fighting for your life. My advice....learn all the ways
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#225436 - 01/25/06 04:31 PM Re: 'kick with the legs.....but don't kick the legs' [Re: charlie]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Low kicks actually start earlier, with Jhoon Gun (if I'm not mistaken, a blue belt pattern).

Basically, leg kicks are very dangerous and, especially if you do it powerfully, are likely to bugger your opponents knees. That's why they aren't used in free-sparring. However, as Earl says, they do play a role. You'll also use them in set-sparring and SD drills.
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#225437 - 01/25/06 05:10 PM Re: 'kick with the legs.....but don't kick the leg [Re: trevek]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
Quote:


Low kicks actually start earlier, with Jhoon Gun (if I'm not mistaken, a blue belt pattern).




I always thought that the front kicks in Do-san, Won-hyo and Yul-gok were meant to be low.

Anyway, my thoughts on low kicking in ITF TKD are thus: In free sparring, there is a safety factor in kicking low. I can remember when another chap side-kicked me in my knee- and it hurt like hell! Apart from that, I could have been seriously injured.

Other styles that allow leg kicks, only ever allow angular kicks to the legs, and ban kicks to the knees. I feel that the side-kick plays such a major role in TKD, that not allowing it to be used below the belt, would unbalance the art.

Step sparring, SD and patterns are all good ways of practicing low kicking in a safe environment. I especially like using low kicks in one-step. I find that most risky techniques are taken out of free-sparring, for instance gloves stop use of using different striking tools to softer points on the body, but in one-step sparring, you will be able to practice any technique in the TKD arsenal to your heart's content.

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#225438 - 01/25/06 10:55 PM Re: 'kick with the legs.....but don't kick the leg [Re: Supremor]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1674
It is for safety purposes in sparring (WTF as well). But they most certainly are practiced in the patterns of both Chang Hon & Kukki(Koryo has 2 side kicks at the beginning,one to the knee the other to the midsection)as well as the self defense techniques (the perineal nerve is commomly a target).

VDJ

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#225439 - 01/25/06 11:35 PM Re: 'kick with the legs.....but don't kick the legs' [Re: charlie]
traz Offline
Member

Registered: 12/29/04
Posts: 99
Loc: Canada
the safety reason is kind of moot, seeing as other arts train leg kicks regularly and its not a huge issue.
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#225440 - 01/26/06 01:58 AM Re: 'kick with the legs.....but don't kick the legs' [Re: traz]
Sushi Offline
Member

Registered: 11/23/05
Posts: 93
Loc: Germany
Quote:

the safety reason is kind of moot, seeing as other arts train leg kicks regularly and its not a huge issue.



and which one of all the others is Olympic??

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#225441 - 01/26/06 08:55 AM Re: 'kick with the legs.....but don't kick the legs' [Re: Sushi]
trevek Offline
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Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Quote:

and which one of all the others is Olympic??




Not Chang Hon TKD.

As for the safety reasons being moot, some other arts forbid punches to the face... even Kyokoshin Karate.

Chang Hon generally practises semi contact sparring, so there's another reason (although I've always wondered why sweeps weren't allowed).
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#225442 - 01/26/06 09:47 AM Re: 'kick with the legs.....but don't kick the legs' [Re: charlie]
schanne Offline
breaks things

Registered: 02/18/04
Posts: 4370
Loc: Woodbury NJ
Safety reasons, I don't buy it. As rough as training used to be I don't think we are on the same buss here and still don't believe that's the reason why the Korean styles don't "usually" kick below the waist. Most of the low kicks in MMA style fighting are not to the knees or jointed areas, they are directed to the thigh or meated calf way below the knee. (During training and sparring) Yes your thigh gets real sore but so does your jaw if your hit with a hook kick.

Personally I think it has more to do with their kicking abilities, to kick high, sort of a pride thing. They might feel that it is beneath them to kick low??? All this handed down post WW11......i've heard of weirder things in MA


Edited by schanne (01/26/06 09:56 AM)
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#225443 - 01/26/06 02:03 PM Re: 'kick with the legs.....but don't kick the legs' [Re: Sushi]
traz Offline
Member

Registered: 12/29/04
Posts: 99
Loc: Canada
Quote:


and which one of all the others is Olympic??




Then the reason would have more to do with the olympics, than with safety. Once again, if other arts can do it safely, than so can TKD.

And Kyokushin disallows face punches because it uses bare knuckles. Thats the trade off they chose, and it WOULD be dangerous. If they used gloves, you can bet kyokushin would have face punches.
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#225444 - 01/26/06 05:26 PM Re: 'kick with the legs.....but don't kick the leg [Re: schanne]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
Quote:

Safety reasons, I don't buy it. As rough as training used to be I don't think we are on the same buss here and still don't believe that's the reason why the Korean styles don't "usually" kick below the waist. Most of the low kicks in MMA style fighting are not to the knees or jointed areas, they are directed to the thigh or meated calf way below the knee. (During training and sparring) Yes your thigh gets real sore but so does your jaw if your hit with a hook kick.




My point is that in MT and kickboxing, the side kick has a far more minor role then in TKD. For a TKD practitioner (or for me anyway), the most obvious way to attack the legs, is the side kick the knee. If I was allowed to kick to the legs, then I would automatically want to kick to the knee. If I was made to use angular kicks to the legs, I feel my art would be diluted and less effective. As it is, I can use knee kicks in one-step, which balances out the whole thing for me.

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#225445 - 01/27/06 12:33 AM Re: 'kick with the legs.....but don't kick the leg [Re: Supremor]
traz Offline
Member

Registered: 12/29/04
Posts: 99
Loc: Canada
That really doesn't explain why TKD would disallow roundhouse kicks to the legs. They can still ban sidekicks to the knee and allow roundkicks.
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#225446 - 01/27/06 03:31 AM Re: 'kick with the legs.....but don't kick the leg [Re: traz]
Sushi Offline
Member

Registered: 11/23/05
Posts: 93
Loc: Germany
Quote:

That really doesn't explain why TKD would disallow roundhouse kicks to the legs. They can still ban sidekicks to the knee and allow roundkicks.




I tried to explain, that for making it to the Olympics, Safety guards are necessary and avoiding high risk of injury as well.
For the Olympics the aim is to show sportsmanship.

Kickin someones legs is not a problem for anyone, trained or untrained.
In Taekwondo basics and self-defence you learn to kick to the legs (Yop-Chagi to the knee).
What is so special about kicking someones legs??
I find it rude and simple.
Watch a K1 fight or MT they always kick to the legs. That saves energy, is simple and kick by kick you hurt you oponent more and more.....
allowing punches to the head....
as a result kickboxing is boxing with a few kicks. Mostly they can kick a little and tney can punch a little. But they cannot really kick on high level and cannot really punch on high level.
Taekwondo is specialised in foot work.

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#225447 - 01/27/06 05:39 AM Re: 'kick with the legs.....but don't kick the leg [Re: Sushi]
Subedei Offline
Member

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 479
Why can't you grapple and throw in free sparring? I would think leg kicks being banned shares similar reasoning.

On another note, the huge lack of linear kicks in regular MMA training kind of baffles me. They've had plenty of MT and Karate practitioners to prove thier effectiveness over the years.

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#225448 - 01/27/06 11:52 AM Re: 'kick with the legs.....but don't kick the legs' [Re: traz]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

the safety reason is kind of moot, seeing as other arts train leg kicks regularly and its not a huge issue.




Not just that, but kicking someone in the face is safer then kicking them in the leg? I mean, come on. If it is a rules thing to encourage higher, more dynamic kicking, that's fine. But don't BS people with the honor/safety reasoning.
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#225449 - 01/27/06 01:06 PM Re: 'kick with the legs.....but don't kick the leg [Re: Sushi]
traz Offline
Member

Registered: 12/29/04
Posts: 99
Loc: Canada
Gather 2 people...one of them trained in kicking legs, the other who has never kicked a leg. I guarantee you, you'll find out which one is which if you offer your leg.

Punching people in the face seems pretty easy...why does anyone practice punching?

If you're going to use the olympics as the reasoning, thats fine, just don't chalk it up to safety. In actuality, its probably closer to the fact that leg kicks aren't flashy or need alot of athleticism.


Edited by traz (01/27/06 01:07 PM)
_________________________
MMA Hapkidoist Like a midget at a urinal, I'm always on my toes.

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#225450 - 01/28/06 01:27 AM Re: 'kick with the legs.....but don't kick the leg [Re: traz]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Not to mention it wouldtake away from the athesthetics of the sport. Just like kicking would do from the sport of boxing.

However, tkd practitoners still are experts in kicking and kicking kicking low should really be easier for them since they usually practice kicking high.

As far as leg kicking goes, sure I would use it in a street defense situation, after all I wear steel toed boots.

I think it should just be practiced in step sparring, along with all the other lethal techniques.
_________________________
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does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
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#225451 - 01/28/06 05:50 AM Re: 'kick with the legs.....but don't kick the leg [Re: traz]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Quote:

If you're going to use the olympics as the reasoning, thats fine, just don't chalk it up to safety.




For crying out loud! The Olympics thing doesn't work in this argument because the original poster says they train Chang Hon (ITF-style) which IS NOT in the Olympics, never has been and is not yet connected to WTF (which IS in the Olympics).

CHANG HON= NOT OLYMPIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ITF/Chang HOn competition sparring DOES NOT use leg kicks either. It hasn't since looooooong before TKD got into the Olympics.

Do people think this is a hidden ploy by ITF to get Olympic recognition?

"Hey Guys, look, the WTF are in the Olympics cos they don't leg kick. Maybe if we don't leg kick we can get in too!"

Errm, I doubt it.

I've read interviews with high ranking ITF masters who pointed to the safety aspect. People like Bill Wallace (yes, I know he isn't a TKD man) have publicly said they don't like leg kicks for safety reasons (and why doesn't all Kick Boxing have leg kicks?).

So, that being said, it doesn't mean it is the ONLY reason (I think the 'pride' idea of showing high kicks is relevant too).

Now... where's my decaff....
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#225452 - 01/28/06 07:41 AM Re: 'kick with the legs.....but don't kick the leg [Re: trevek]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
i think safety a small part of the reason for not doing it in sparring .my instructor did say once that sweeps used to be allowed though people were getting injured so they were taken out.
the reason i know is that its the idea that your pushing yourself to kick higher as its harder to do.to hit the head is the hardest target and one of the easiest parts to move out the way. its a challenge and if you can do that or set it up to hit it yourl be able to hit other places easier.a competant TKD person should be able to front kick and side kick low easily with power which could do alot of damage.the tradition turning kick getting the hips over done low with shoes on would make it able to not have to use the ball of the foot and as your hitting off centre(the way im taught)a step to the side would create more power going through the target plus if you can break at high level with it,it should be easier done low(the breaking a smashing of the target being the idea of TAEKWONDO).then if you use a faster sports 45 kick done low with shoes on,protecting you more its going to hurt too.escpecialy against untrained people.
to be honest where i train in ITF we do lots of middle section kicks more than high......45 kicks middle,side kicks mid.front kicks middle .only the axe kick and hook kick is always done high.thats not to say not to go high,just that its like the hole in one..hard and only to be done at the right time.

of course for self defence/one step..which is later on.you can kick where you like.plus the early patterns have front kicks done low too.though because its a front kick and not flashy its overlooked though its a very usefull kick.



Edited by matxtx (01/28/06 08:04 AM)
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#225453 - 01/28/06 08:43 AM Re: 'kick with the legs.....but don't kick the leg [Re: matxtx]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Interesting thought, would you do a front kick to the leg (OK, I know they are in patterns,but would you?)?

I think the point of contact would be harder to apply effectively, whereas a side kick has a wider area of contact.

Any thoughts, anyone?
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See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

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#225454 - 01/28/06 09:42 AM Re: 'kick with the legs.....but don't kick the leg [Re: trevek]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
Quote:


Interesting thought, would you do a front kick to the leg (OK, I know they are in patterns,but would you?)?

I think the point of contact would be harder to apply effectively, whereas a side kick has a wider area of contact.




I would use the front kick mainly as a jamming kick to the groin or thigh. You can also use it as a counter to someone using a shifting jab, to take out the knee of the front leg.

Personally, I too prefer the side kick for low kicks, however the front kick is faster to execute. We use the ball of the foot with the front-kick, pulling back the toes. With shoes on though, I can see the kick being much easier to execute. On the other hand, our side kick is with the footsword, and so doesn't really have that much surface area. I personally would only use the footsword for a knee kick, whereas the heel is just as good for larger targets.

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#225455 - 01/28/06 01:38 PM Re: 'kick with the legs.....but don't kick the leg [Re: Supremor]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
oh yea i rate the front kick.mm i see how you mean about hitting the legs, though i dont think it should be a problem.its going to do something even if its just off balance them if you dont catch them properly..like has been said its a good jamming kick and good to the groin.good to push away with.done low as like a poke to the shin with the toe end of your shoes should cause discomfort.
its also a kick you dont have to get your hips over so its ideal for beginners,even non beginners.
if its icy out..or your on iffy ground or youv just woke up...its good becuase it straight and fast and not as awkward.and power can be gotten with training.
theres the pressing kick too.thats MEANT to be low.
mm maybe thats a better kick than the side kick and front kick to do low as theres no pivot on the standing foot so less chance of imbalence and you get the side kick like foot shaping of your choosing(heel or footsword).
what do you reckon?


Edited by matxtx (01/28/06 01:46 PM)

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#225456 - 01/28/06 03:40 PM Re: 'kick with the legs.....but don't kick the leg [Re: charlie]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Personally I feel kicking the legs is dangerous. However, I have seen some okinawan styles practice this technique in what we call step sparring. in that context since it is a pre-arranged sparring technique and both participants are aware of the techniques that will be used to either attack or defend then I feel that it is okay to be used, but in free sparring where there is no pre-arranged knowledge of what techniques will be used then "no" i do not think kicks to the legs should be allowed. Only when the reciever of such kicks have full wareness should dangerous techniques like this shouldbe allowed.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#225457 - 01/28/06 05:32 PM Re: 'kick with the legs.....but don't kick the leg [Re: Supremor]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
I agree about groin kicks. I think if I was aiming a shot at his families future then I wouldn't use the toe, rather the instep, as it also has a larger surface and could be aided by his own biological geography.

Tek, TKD also uses leg kicks in step sparring.


Edited by trevek (01/28/06 05:34 PM)
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#225458 - 01/28/06 06:03 PM Re: 'kick with the legs.....but don't kick the leg [Re: trevek]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Another question, could the lack of leg kicks in competition sparring have anything to do with it being too easy to score a point? When do you kick them and when do they block the kick with their leg?
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#225459 - 01/30/06 06:33 AM Re: 'kick with the legs.....but don't kick the leg [Re: trevek]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Apparently TaeKyon uses leg kicks

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taekyon
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