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#224119 - 04/05/06 02:03 PM Re: 'Real goju'? [Re: harlan]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884

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#224120 - 04/05/06 07:28 PM Re: 'Real goju'? [Re: oldman]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
definitely not 'standard' Goju if there is such a thing. I'm not sure what influence it is but my guess is this person is a Shotokan stylist...or more likely multiple influences. It's almost like a Japanese Shorin stylist doing Okinawan Goju movements with over-exagurations in some parts. seems to be a bit off...anyone else notice some strange things with the kata? or is it just me?

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#224121 - 04/06/06 04:05 PM Re: 'Real goju'? [Re: Ed_Morris]
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
I suspect it's shoreikan (Seikichi Toguchi line).
Because of Kakuha kata.

Power is lacking in the 'finish' of the technique. I cannot see explosive power (fa jing) in his execution.
Smooth walking but he tends to 'reset' his front foot before stepping forward (see seiunchin). This is not as I am thaught. Moving should come from generating power through the hip.
His tora-guchi (mawashi-uke) is a bit short to my preference.
A bit monotoom in execution too, always same rythm in everything. Stances are pretty good, but transitions are too slow. Also misses muchime in the slow actions and chanchan in the fast actions.

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#224122 - 04/06/06 04:41 PM Re: 'Real goju'? [Re: CVV]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
I don't think curriculum gives too much of a hint since who knows where people pick kata up. The toguchi line doesn't have that low of stances esp. in shiko dachi. constant rate of execution like you mentioned and lower stances tell me a modern shorin derived influence.

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#224123 - 04/06/06 05:24 PM Re: 'Real goju'? [Re: Ed_Morris]
oldman Offline
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Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884

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#224124 - 04/09/06 12:22 AM Re: 'Real goju'? [Re: harlan]
oldman Offline
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Registered: 07/28/04
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#224125 - 04/09/06 01:13 PM Re: 'Real goju'? [Re: oldman]
bo-ken Offline
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Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 1228
Loc: beaver falls, PA, beaver
That kata was well done.

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#224126 - 04/09/06 03:18 PM Re: 'Real goju'? [Re: bo-ken]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
The kata was well done. I don't recognize the kata 'tenchi' though. I'm certainly not the authority though.
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#224127 - 04/09/06 07:15 PM Re: 'Real goju'? [Re: BrianS]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
'tenchi' apparently is a kata that was created in the 70's by Meitoku Yagi in order to introduce students to goju's standard kaishu kata. other kata were added during the 80's and 90's. I've never heard of these till now. It's a different timeline of Meibukan. Anthony Mirakian learned the Goju kaishu kata curriculum from Yagi in the 50's and 60's...and as far as I know, didn't teach the 'newer' kata. I could be wrong on that.

What is considered the 'standard' syllabus of Goju are the kata as follows (the order in which they are taught vary between schools):

Sanchin & Tensho
Saifa
Seiunchin
Shisochin
Sanseiru
Sepai
Kururunfa
Sesan
Suparenpei

the general movements/embusen are similar between major Goju schools, but influence, emphasis, execution speed and interpretation vary widely. You could have one Goju school teaching kata with stylized form competition in mind, which generally is more popular with the Japanese versions of Goju...and then have another school teaching with a heavy influence of the Chinese Art aspect of forms - which is most likely the type of forms taught by Higaonna to Miyagi, Mabuni and Juhatsu Kyoda.

It's all 'real' Goju. Just depends what you want it to do and then find someone who teaches it that way.

The one thing all of the major schools don't dispute is that Miyagi himself taught all of the kata that I listed (but it's questionable if he taught any ONE person all of them). what IS disputed is which of those kata were taught to him by Higaonna...although Sanchin and Seisan are not disputed.

It's a complicated mess with so many variants, that I wouldn't even attempt to say which are 'more' goju than another.

sorry I couldn't help more...

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#224128 - 06/17/07 05:27 PM Re: 'Real goju'? [Re: Ed_Morris]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
bump

'Real' goju. The more I see, the more elusive it seems to get. Looking to understand a little bit about 'chin na', and I 'see' Chin na in Saifa.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFAcPe8VPiA

There is another discussion on whether or not grappling is in karate; where to draw the line 'this is karate'. How about joint locks?

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