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#224109 - 01/20/06 08:28 AM 'Real goju'?
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Newbie question: is there a 'standard' way of performing Goju kata, and where can one 'see' it? I've been looking at Goju kata online for a bit now, and each website seems a little different from each other, as well as different from what I learn. Is there a standard way of performing kata (and who does it) that is taught, or variations/personal interpretations of kata that can be considered 'acceptable'? (If yes...what are the criteria for acceptance?)

Thank you for feedback to the newbie.

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#224110 - 01/20/06 08:42 AM Re: 'Real goju'? [Re: harlan]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
harlan,
Next month I hope to have 2 Goju guys visiting me. It reminded me of an old joke.

How many Goju practitioners does it take to do a kata?

Answer? 8

1 to demontrait it and 7 to say " In our School we....."

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#224111 - 01/20/06 10:03 AM Re: 'Real goju'? [Re: harlan]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
harlan

This may be more info than you asked for---but you did ask

The problem is that Miyagi had a number of students and the guy that probably would have taken over for him as the effective "head" of Goju was killed in WW2.

Miyagi seems to have taught in the "old style" where he taught the same kata to different people in slightly differnt fashion--kinda tailored to each person individual needs--their specific strengths and weaknesses.

Which is pretty much how all karate training used to be done--and one reason why you see so much variation in karate as a whole.

After they mastered the system each student then kinda went their own way--set up their own organizations etc.

(I don't think any did so while Miyagi was alive)

So each group of Okinwan goju is doing thing a bit differently.

And the Japanese goju guys are doing things "their" way as well.

The difference range from very minor to significant.

All can be broadly classified as Japanese or Okinawan, and all are doing things close enough to the "same" to see whom trained with whom.

Best I can do is say that the differences your looking at are probably "standard" withen the specifc goju organization that the performes belong too.

And they probably all fit the "umbrella" standard of "goju."

But there is really no "uber" standard for goju.


Edited by cxt (01/20/06 10:06 AM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#224112 - 01/20/06 01:42 PM Re: 'Real goju'? [Re: cxt]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I think each system has a look and feel to it, Goju has a Okinawan Chinese look and feel thats different from the Chinese/Okinawan looking mulitple strike Kenpo/Kempo systems or the Japanese look of Shotokan. Within the flowing multiple strikes of Goju any one can take you out, the soft is as powerful if not more so then the hard. It doesn't do a lot of slaping yourself or reflective striking/checking like Kenpo. It doesn't do a lot of gentle lifting of the chin before the strike, Goju usually will strike between the chin opening and continue striking. It also seems to bump, pull, push, and hold on more then Kenpo/Kempo. I'd say Goju has less hip throwing motions then Kenpo and more leg sweeps/reaps and arm throws. Both are self defense systems rather then sport oriented, and like to joint lock.

Goju seems similar to Kenpo/Kempo without the gentle lifting motions, slapping themself and crab like rolling rotating strikes. It flows but its seems to be the difference between trad Wing Chun (too much trapping rather then hitting, going by Jessee Glover) and Juan Fa Gung-fu (where they change to more hitting and less trapping). Not an exact comparison but off the top of my head, its what I see.

I think the purest form of Goju-ryu being the ones that adheard to Miyagi's Katas and Higashionna's Katas. Which teaches this flow, look and feel. My system has these and add ons by Soko Toguchi.

CTX - Nice technical why?


Edited by Neko456 (01/20/06 02:04 PM)

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#224113 - 01/20/06 02:13 PM Re: 'Real goju'? [Re: Neko456]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
I would appreciate it if contributers to this thread stay on topic. I am NOT interested in any cross comparisons of guju and XXXart, and will request that the thread be locked it it looks like it is going to be derailed/hijacked.

Thank you.

My newbie radar tells me that folks learn kata, and then may teach the exact way of doing it to others...forming 'carbon copies'. When I see the same kata being done differently, I wonder...'Is one of these a personal version...and whose version is it?'

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#224114 - 01/20/06 02:28 PM Re: 'Real goju'? [Re: harlan]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
harlan

Another difference is that most of the whats commonely called "koryu" kata (the "koryu" is used to denote the "old style" kata from what are called the "testing" kata)
is that the "koryu" kata are often done in a much more "flowing" manner.
With less attention on the laser-tight kime.

Ive heard people watching it as thinking the goju kata were being done in a "loose" or even "sloppy" manner.

Speaking just for the goju I am familier with--the stances tend to be higher with the only really deep stance being shiko-dachi--and that one is deeeeep.

I agree with Neko in that there is lot of holding, trapping, bumping, etc going on.

Aslo alot going on at the knee level.

As a very general rule--alot of goju tends to be constructed around a very close fighting range, also why that as a rule goju tends to chamber high and tight.



Edited by cxt (01/20/06 02:34 PM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#224115 - 01/20/06 04:07 PM Re: 'Real goju'? [Re: harlan]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Sorry harlan I wasn't trying to side track the thread I was just adding to the technical that CTX stated about how it was taught to each pupil differently by Miyagi Sensei.

I was attempting tie together that the Katas gives each style its look and feel and how this differs from similar in ideal but different popular effective fighting arts.

Its hard for me to talk Kata without talking about flow and look and feel. Goju is a touchy feeliy art.

Each Instructor teaches a Kata a little different the standard floor pattern is the same almost, but the explained bunkia determines what may or may not be different. You see this alot in Goju-kia and Goju-ryu.

There should be no differences within kias or ryus, but I believe its the explaination of the techniques within, that changes the movement slightly. In some case its who was taught what and when.

Hopefully thats back on track.


Edited by Neko456 (01/20/06 04:12 PM)
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#224116 - 01/21/06 03:54 AM Re: 'Real goju'? [Re: Neko456]
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
Generally speaking, you can divide Goju ryu into 2 sects.
The Okinawan and the Japanese sect. They are however deeply related.

I am only talking about the evolution as from Miyagi sensei. Not before. Miyagi sensei only ever gave teaching licence to 3 people : Seko Higa, Jinsei Kamiya, Jinan Shinzato. Of them only Seko Higa ever opened dojo and had an organization (Shodokan).
On the Okinawan side, after the death of Miyagi sensei, we have Meibukan (Meitoku Yagi sensei) Jundokan (Eiichi Myazato sensei) Shoreikan (Seikichi Toguchi sensei) and the Shodokan (Seko Higa sensei) as the most important lineages.

On Japanese side, there are roughley 2 major lineages, Goju-Kai (Yamaguchi sensei) and JKF Goju-kai (Shozo Ujita, Tomohoru Kisaki, Jitsei Yogi (Okinawan, senior student of Miyagi) and Kenzo Uchiage). Yamaguchi's major inluence after Miyagi died was Meitoku Yagi of the Meibukan. Within JKF Goju-kai mjor influence was Shoreikan of Seikichi Toguchi (early) and Jundokan of Eiichi Miyazato - Koshin Iha (later).
For any Goju school, you can track back it's lineage to these people in 99%. All of these people are dead except Koshin Iha (but he no longer teaches).

The IOGKF (as large world wide organization) is a spin-off of the Jundokan as is the YKKF of Ron Yamanaka. Non of these are currently affiliated to the Jundokan.

It is all 'real' Goju. The differences have to do with interpretations and how they were thaught by Miyagi sensei and in what time frame. Their curriculum is the result of their training and was developped after a long deliberation and study.

In the same way, my performance of kata is the expression of my experiences. For the most part, I follow the JKF Goju-Kai line but for certain details, I have other influences. They are my interpretations after 25 year of research and I consider it real 'Goju'.

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#224117 - 01/21/06 01:38 PM Re: 'Real goju'? [Re: harlan]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

Newbie question: is there a 'standard' way of performing Goju kata, and where can one 'see' it? I've been looking at Goju kata online for a bit now, and each website seems a little different from each other, as well as different from what I learn. Is there a standard way of performing kata (and who does it) that is taught, or variations/personal interpretations of kata that can be considered 'acceptable'? (If yes...what are the criteria for acceptance?)

Thank you for feedback to the newbie.




To me the answer is no. You do goju kata the way you are taught and noone is taught exactly the same. When I saw Ed perform seiunchin I knew he did a diffeent goju than I,but still 'real' goju.
There are those who have alot of snobbery and will tell you there is only one way and one 'real' goju,but it isn't true to me. The actual performance of kata is only self expression.
_________________________
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#224118 - 01/23/06 11:28 AM Re: 'Real goju'? [Re: CVV]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Thats was interesting and I believe factual as history goes and I feel you on interpetation, examination and self expression (BrianS). I believe all versions of Goju are true because their base and lineage & look and feel, its never been just a sport base art and its stress is toward internal health(breathing) & self defense.

Some Kata look and feel stays pretty much the same as the original forms. Like ones added by Toguchi. They look like Gakisai da Ni and are named Gakisai da San and Yo, Gaikiha 1&2 prepares you for Seisan, & Sepia, Koukiha prepares you for Shishoshin and Kururunfa. I'd like to see's Meibukan's Turtle form and see how if its totally strays from the flow of the system or stays pretty much with the floor pattern and look/feel.

Urban's self expression Urban's Empi kata strays (IMO)from the floor plan but is still a good kata that practices elbows strikes, which are a ground floor plan of Goju's in fighting. So its still real Goju.


Edited by Neko456 (01/23/06 11:35 AM)
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