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#224083 - 01/20/06 07:34 AM Submissions on the street
1neikoot Offline
Member

Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 230
Loc: Candy Land
Lets say you manage to pull off a submission on the street. Would you go all the way and choke him out, break his arm or even kill the guy? One problem I see is when the guy taps out and you instinctively let him go, you might be in for some trouble. Another problem is say your opponent is begging to let go, "I give up", or "okay you win", assume that you feel sorry for the guy and trust him, so you let him go and your opponent still wants to attack you. So would you just go all the way with the submission on the street?

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#224084 - 01/20/06 08:29 AM Re: Submissions on the street [Re: 1neikoot]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
I would probably submit long before it got started.

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#224085 - 01/20/06 08:41 AM Re: Submissions on the street [Re: 1neikoot]
schanne Offline
breaks things

Registered: 02/18/04
Posts: 4370
Loc: Woodbury NJ
I think after some one is slammed to the ground and put in a arm bar, kamora, choke or any other submission they get the point real quick. As for ending the confrontation on the ground it probably depend on the severity of the attack and what kind of mood your in...to break or not to break?

Probably choking someone out would be easiest and less harmful/invassive vs.a break or dislocation. Your law suit wouldn't be that bad either...LOL just kidding


Edited by schanne (01/20/06 08:45 AM)
_________________________
The way of the warrior does not include other ways... Miyamoto Musashi Schanne

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#224086 - 01/20/06 09:20 AM Re: Submissions on the street [Re: 1neikoot]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
I've had the unfortunate experience of letting a person up after he submitted and that is exactly what happened. He laid there and then got up and cranked me one in the eye and it started over. So in the future I will hold that person that much longer ... I won't kill him ... I won't break anything if I don't have to ... but I will hold him until he calms down, and then hold a "few" seconds longer ... plus I will stand back and give more distance and be ready. That time in 1990 I wasn't trained as I am now, so I don't think it will be an issue.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#224087 - 01/20/06 10:28 AM Re: Submissions on the street [Re: Dereck]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
Depending on how bad the situation is (let's say REAL bad) I wouldn't even think about trying to tap someone out in a confrontation. The street is not the ring and there aren't rules. I would imagine staying on your feet if possible is the best strategy, as it allows you to run or strike.

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#224088 - 01/20/06 12:27 PM Re: Submissions on the street [Re: ShikataGaNai]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
The only thing that changes are the Rules of Engagement. Only you can make that decision of whether to injure some with a joint lock, to put them to sleep, to punch them repeatedly or allow them to surrender. It's your fight. Read it and understand your responsibilities and liabilities.

It all depends. BJJ is the Gentle Art which means it gives you non violent/ traumatic options to subdue youe opponent. It's still a fight though. Your first goal should be to detect the aggression soon enough to avoid it. If that is not possible, diffuse it (and escape) by choice speech and gestures and lastly by defending yourself (and escaping).
_________________________
www.brazilianjiujitsunaples.com

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#224089 - 01/20/06 03:06 PM Re: Submissions on the street [Re: 1neikoot]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5819
Loc: USA
1neikoot

Gotta think about the situation.

Something that I always like to keep in mind is "what happens after??"

By this I mean that most street altercations I have seen were really only the start of the problems.

You have to think about what is going to go down AFTER the fight.

Say you lock a guy and in his drunken struggles to free himself he badly injures his arm and can't work--then his lawyor shows up wanting YOU to pay his bills until he is "better."

Same with clocking a guy---who is to say that you used "proper" force in defending yourself?
You may have--but what is it going to "look" like a year later to a judge?

In the example tha you give--if anyone hears the dude begging you to let him up and you DON'T--consider what that is going to "sound" like to a jury.

Also consider what it can be "spun" into if you let him go and he attacks yo again--so THIS time you hurt him.
Hard to argue that you were afraid of him THEN--see you let him go already--SO YOU CAN'T HAVE "REALLY" BEEN SCARED.

Not trying to put you off defending yourself---just trying to point out that "self defense" takes on MANY different forms--esp in a "street" altercation.

And there is no telling what soneone is going to do.

Heck if they are the kinda of loutish, low brow jerk tha would attack a guy for "fun"--then that's LAST type of guy that will be willing to calmly take his much deserved arse-kicking and simply go away.

A jerk tends to REMAIN a jerk--and they tend to continue being pains in the behind long after you would think they would.
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#224090 - 01/20/06 03:42 PM Re: Submissions on the street [Re: cxt]
1neikoot Offline
Member

Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 230
Loc: Candy Land
Good Posts everyone, thanks


CXT

You bring up alot of good points.

But your points often remind me of why I even bother to train MA'ts. Don't get it wrong, your absolutely right about everything, but it disturbs me with the fact that defending yourself can also be a crime and you have to take many responsibilities into account, especially when its a life threatening situation and YOUR the one who's gonna suffer. In that case, I would go all the way with the submission, but in other cases, I would probably let my opponent go, but I don't think thats a good idea, because
a) you don't know the person at all
b) he might have a gun or knife in his other pocket
c) most likely attack you anyways


Obviously, the streets are full of surprises, thats why I don't think that letting anyone go is such a good idea. The way I look at it is you either finish the job, or prepared to be finished. Your opponent won't feel compassion towards you, and therefore why should I feel any towards him?

In terms of the legal aspects, what if that person does not know me at all, does'nt know what my name is or where I live, how can he possibly sue me? Is it safe to say that the legal aspects don't apply any longer. Is there other methods I don't know about that allows this person to still press charges.

Note: don't get the wrong idea about me, I'm not some ba@#$%^ who's going to choke you to death the first chance I get, I treat all opponents with great respect, but what I'm really getting at here is; you don't know how extreme the situation maybe until you let your opponent go, then you'll really hope you were a ba@#$%^ in the first place


Edited by 1neikoot (01/20/06 03:45 PM)

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#224091 - 01/21/06 01:04 PM Re: Submissions on the street [Re: 1neikoot]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
SD is a double edged sword.

Myself, I train because I enjoy it. I enjoy the challenge of staying in shape, of remaining sharp, of sharing info to new people. Being able to defend myself is a side benefit. SD was why I started MA but it is not "the" reason why I still do it.

With that in mind, I feel that I can protect myself reasonably well in a given situation. Could I improve my chances by training harder and shifting the emphasis to pure SD and doing endless suckerpunch drills and role playing exercises? Maybe. Maybe not. I don't think I would have nearly as much fun and the lack of enjoyment wouild be a factor in my continuing.

Why do I say this? Because I think that a lifelong study of MA should be enjoyable and there should be a balance. What you you train should serve you, not the other way around. The question of whether to submit, injure, restrain or incapacitate, will be based on your perspective of the circumstances. Personal choices require intent and cabability. Training most effectively addresses the latter.
_________________________
www.brazilianjiujitsunaples.com

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#224092 - 01/22/06 08:51 AM Re: Submissions on the street [Re: 1neikoot]
BigRod Offline
Does it all

Registered: 02/10/05
Posts: 736
Loc: Atlanta, GA
You shouldn't be fighting for fun and games. If you fight, it should be for real, and you better do what you need to do to put him down for good.

And really, dislocating/breaking his arm or shouler doesn't mean he'll stop fighting. You should have one heck of an advantage though.

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#224093 - 01/22/06 12:32 PM Re: Submissions on the street [Re: BigRod]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
I think CXT, Fletch and BR addressed the situation perfectly, especially Fletch with regards to training.

Some folk have a weird, almost tangible need to see what they can do on the "street" without appreciating the resposibilities of their actions and understanding that despite how good you are, crap moves down stream pretty quickly.

In other words, train as best you can and enjoy it for the long term.

Kind of funny that all the old masters of whatever art that had actually used their skills in real fights say similar things: enjoy what you are doing; be a better person; and if you don't have to, don't do it.

-B

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#224094 - 01/22/06 10:09 PM Re: Submissions on the street [Re: 1neikoot]
IronBones Offline
Member

Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 67
Loc: Ashland Illinois
Quote:

Lets say you manage to pull off a submission on the street. Would you go all the way and choke him out, break his arm or even kill the guy? One problem I see is when the guy taps out and you instinctively let him go, you might be in for some trouble. Another problem is say your opponent is begging to let go, "I give up", or "okay you win", assume that you feel sorry for the guy and trust him, so you let him go and your opponent still wants to attack you. So would you just go all the way with the submission on the street?




Break'm.

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#224095 - 01/23/06 04:06 AM Re: Submissions on the street [Re: butterfly]
masterfoofighta Offline
Member

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 61
yeah.i agree with butterfly here.training is still best!

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#224096 - 01/25/06 03:44 PM Re: Submissions on the street [Re: 1neikoot]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
When posed with such a question I like to refer to Bruce Tegner's Complete Bookk of jujitsu. Here Mr. Tegner states
"I question the practicality and necessity of learning every defense with a restraint technique. Only law enforcement and security personnel are required to restrain and hold an assailant or suspect; the lay citizen has no such responsibility."(Tegner,p.16)

Our first responsibility is to escape.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#224097 - 01/28/06 05:28 AM Re: Submissions on the street [Re: TeK9]
JamesLightningBolton Offline
Member

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 77
Loc: Victoria Australia
if you are in a fight with somebody, what makes you think they are going to go easy on you and not break your arm given the opportunity to do so? haha, you get an armbar, figure 4 etc... rip it right outta place, snap it in half... its no longer a submission lock but it becomes more so that you are looking to disable the person.

Not sure who said it either, but i dont think anyones going to fight back after they've had their arm snapped.. come on

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#224098 - 01/28/06 08:04 AM Re: Submissions on the street [Re: JamesLightningBolton]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

Not sure who said it either, but i dont think anyones going to fight back after they've had their arm snapped.. come on




It's not always about fighting back. It's about what happens after. And, how do we KNOW that guys won't continue to fight? I know of a few pro fighters that continued to fight with a broken arm (of of them won by knock out with the OTHER arm, lol).

Maybe they'll just not face the person up next time and be sneakier about it. Maybe next time it'll be an ambush. Maybe he'll use a weapon, etc.

If the guy got beat straight up, there are other ways of going about it. Maybe he knows he can't win and decides to approach it from another angle. It happens.

Not always is it taken from the "legal" angle (lawsuits, etc). Sometimes (quite often) it's "revenge" (the "semi-auto out of the rolled down car window at a red-light", etc). Sounds like its right out of the movies but, does art imitate life or vice versa?




-John

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#224099 - 01/28/06 07:57 PM Re: Submissions on the street [Re: JKogas]
JamesLightningBolton Offline
Member

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 77
Loc: Victoria Australia
yeh sure, your pretty right. But i dont think if i was in the middle of a fight where my life is in danger i would think to myself, " gee i better not hurt him to bad incase he gets angry and comes back another day for revenge" Take life day at a time and roll with the punches.. seriously, in any situation take what you can get.. but ofcourse the last place you want to be in a fight is on the ground, give everything while standing and if your gonna hold back because you dont want to hurt them to much incase they get angry well.. hahaha... that just sounds funny saying that!

oh.. im not trying to take a stab at you either JKogas im sorry, i just disagree with your opinion on this.

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#224100 - 01/29/06 11:18 AM Re: Submissions on the street [Re: JamesLightningBolton]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

yeh sure, your pretty right. But i dont think if i was in the middle of a fight where my life is in danger i would think to myself, " gee i better not hurt him to bad incase he gets angry and comes back another day for revenge"....





That isn't what I was saying though.

Quote:

Take life day at a time and roll with the punches.. seriously, in any situation take what you can get.. but ofcourse the last place you want to be in a fight is on the ground, give everything while standing and if your gonna hold back because you dont want to hurt them to much incase they get angry well.. hahaha... that just sounds funny saying that!

oh.. im not trying to take a stab at you either JKogas im sorry, i just disagree with your opinion on this.




I understand your point and I don't disagree. I wasn't saying not to hurt someone (if one "can" and one HAS to)...only to understand that it's usually not that simple and that there are always consequences that some never consider.

-John

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