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#223314 - 01/17/06 05:23 PM What would you guys say?
mean_fighter Offline
Member

Registered: 12/18/05
Posts: 160
Hey I have a problem............well its not really my problem rather it is my younger brothers. See hes ten years old and wants too take martial arts like me, he went to my dojang and tried out ten classes. on his eleventh visit he brought 5 friends and there parents to our training, one of his friends asked on how long it would take to get there black belts my instructor answered 5-6 years. This upset not only the kids but the parents aswell, One of the parents replied,"Well the other place down the road says that my kids can get there BB in just 1 1/2 years?" My instructor just smiled and said, "well its your choice and every place trains differently." All the parents signed there kids up to the dojo that offers TKD, shoulin kempo, kickboxing and, JJJ. My brother wants to go to the dojo with all his friendsm. How do I help my brother get back to the real stuff??!?!?!!!!!!!!?!

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#223315 - 01/17/06 05:33 PM Re: What would you guys say? [Re: mean_fighter]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
kick his butt, that's a big brother's job.

Hard call... are you sure the other dojo is bad quality? Maybe he'll get bored of it if it isn't good, or maybe his buddies will drop out and he'll come crawling back to you.
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#223316 - 01/17/06 05:54 PM Re: What would you guys say? [Re: mean_fighter]
onb Offline
Member

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 246
Loc: Canada
Unfortunately, you may not be successful. Especially with young people, it is very hard to convince them of anything contrary to where their friends are.

I've tried to convince people that a mcdogo they are going to isn't the best place and that they should consider other clubs (not just mine, but any non-mc club) I've failed in every attempt. People will go where they want. Ultimately, it may fall to your parents to lay down the law. Family discounts and a parent saying, "look we're only going to drive you guys to one location not two" may be the winning cards.

I don't know about others but my brother wouldn't have been able to convince me of not changing schools but my parents would have been able to... by telling me where I was going, not asking.

onb

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#223317 - 01/17/06 07:55 PM Re: What would you guys say? [Re: onb]
mean_fighter Offline
Member

Registered: 12/18/05
Posts: 160
Yeah, I just dont want my mother and father to pay 550$ a year for empty training. I am afraid to say the mcdojo word because one of the parents know the owner and two other head instructors of that crappy place! I find myself in a bind I want to advice against them being there but, hey how can I tell them what they need.

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#223318 - 01/17/06 08:15 PM Re: What would you guys say? [Re: mean_fighter]
h2whoa Offline
Member

Registered: 10/16/05
Posts: 427
Loc: Fiji
Mean dude this is not a choice that you can make for your brother...sit him down tell him your concerns and why he shouldnt go there...then leave the choice up to him..it is his journey not yours!

And beat on him for no reason...that is a big brothers right!

*bows respectfully*
_________________________
No matter how fashionable it is on Krypton, I will not wear my underwear on the outside of my Gi!!

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#223319 - 01/17/06 10:12 PM Re: What would you guys say? [Re: h2whoa]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1672
Quote:

Mean dude this is not a choice that you can make for your brother...sit him down tell him your concerns and why he shouldnt go there...then leave the choice up to him..it is his journey not yours!

And beat on him for no reason...that is a big brothers right!

*bows respectfully*




The kid is 10 ! Understanding won't be an option, he'll want to follow his friends unless the parents step up and do the right thing. It's a real shame that you have this Mickey D school in the same neighborhood. You shouldn't be afraid to say what you feel because some of the parents are friends with the instructor. Shame on them for not doing more research on what is truly invloved in training ! If they want there kid to have a BB so bad, tell them to buy one off the internet, it will save them tons of money (how many test and how much are they per test ?)and they will get the same result, a kid that won't be able to kick out of a wet paper bag !

VDJ

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#223320 - 01/18/06 02:41 AM Re: What would you guys say? [Re: VDJ]
Sushi Offline
Member

Registered: 11/23/05
Posts: 93
Loc: Germany
The kid is 10 ! Understanding won't be an option, he'll want to follow his friends unless the parents step up and do the right thing.
VDJ




That is right! The only thing which would help is to talk to those parents and tell them martial art does not mean wearing a black belt. To be realistic 5-6 years is the absolute minimum when practising at least 4 times a week.

You can also tell them that tis Mc Dojo black belts are only black belts to hang on the wall or to wear just in this certain Dojo and you will not be allowed to wear them anywhere else.
Real BBs have to be certified by WTF or ITF and the minimum age for BB is 16 years of age. And the minimum necessary qualification is 6 months for Yellow - another 6 months for green - another 7 months for blue - another 10 months for red another 6 months for red/black - another 12 months for black.The pure theory makes it at least 4 years, but I do not know anybody who achieved his black-belt before 6 years of training. It took me 9 years to black belt and another two years for 2nd degree. And that is although I was training daily for more than 4 years

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#223321 - 01/18/06 07:47 AM Re: What would you guys say? [Re: Sushi]
h2whoa Offline
Member

Registered: 10/16/05
Posts: 427
Loc: Fiji
10 year olds are alot more mature then when we were young....but the parents seem to only want a day care center...basically the childen will see the truth in time and if the parents want to pay cash for some exercise for there kids then its cool...it is not up to us to go about trying to convince people we know the true and only path!

*bows respectfully*
_________________________
No matter how fashionable it is on Krypton, I will not wear my underwear on the outside of my Gi!!

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#223322 - 01/18/06 08:41 AM Re: What would you guys say? [Re: mean_fighter]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
How do you know their a mcdojang? What are you basing this on, the yearly fees? Have you seen the quality of thier program, have you checked the instructors credentials?

Maybe you are just being biased.

This is just something eles you can think about before you try convincing anyone of anything. Who knows by checking out the other school you might want to join it. Good luck!
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#223323 - 01/18/06 09:43 AM Re: What would you guys say? [Re: TeK9]
mean_fighter Offline
Member

Registered: 12/18/05
Posts: 160
Quote:

How do you know their a mcdojang? What are you basing this on, the yearly fees? Have you seen the quality of thier program, have you checked the instructors credentials?

Maybe you are just being biased.

This is just something eles you can think about before you try convincing anyone of anything. Who knows by checking out the other school you might want to join it. Good luck!




I have checked out there school it is horrible. The kids have so much pathches on there doboks, I dont see white on them at all! and they have tournamnets every other week My brother hasnt made the decision to leave.Yet. but if he does I would be sadned to see him learning four ma all at once while performing XMA in red,blue and white dobok

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#223324 - 01/18/06 10:06 AM Re: What would you guys say? [Re: mean_fighter]
h2whoa Offline
Member

Registered: 10/16/05
Posts: 427
Loc: Fiji
All you have spoken about is the uniform and the fact that he does XMA...but he has learnt four different arts....I study more than four...so If I opened a school would that mean it was a McDojang!

You are telling us that he is versed in four arts and that he does patterns in tournaments and can create his own.....tell me again how is this a McDojang?

*bows respectfully*
_________________________
No matter how fashionable it is on Krypton, I will not wear my underwear on the outside of my Gi!!

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#223325 - 01/18/06 10:18 AM Re: What would you guys say? [Re: h2whoa]
mean_fighter Offline
Member

Registered: 12/18/05
Posts: 160
Im sorry h2whoa I didnt meen to offend you
Well not only that but the guys who own the dojang isnt exactly there dojang. Its hard for me to word it exactly give me some time and Ill get back to you

ps. sorry Im only 17 and not that smart

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#223326 - 01/18/06 10:22 AM Re: What would you guys say? [Re: h2whoa]
JCM Offline
Newbie

Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 17
Well for the most part it is your parents choice. I would say from my experience there is a 95 percent chance your parents are under contract with your present Master so that is a huge factor for most folks.

I also would suggest looking into the credentials of the other instructor and see if they check out.

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#223327 - 01/18/06 11:46 AM Re: What would you guys say? [Re: h2whoa]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1672
Quote:

10 year olds are alot more mature then when we were young....but the parents seem to only want a day care center...basically the childen will see the truth in time and if the parents want to pay cash for some exercise for there kids then its cool...it is not up to us to go about trying to convince people we know the true and only path!

*bows respectfully*




No 10 year olds ARE NOT more mature than we were, they just THINK they are and adults telling them this doesn't help ! Life experience is life experience, period !A poor kid from the city might have more wisdom in regards to the street than does a kid in the safe surroundings of the suburbs, but the only thing some of these kids from the inner city have become is more dangerous, not more mature. I know this is a little off topic, but I see it daily and I do not believe that 10 year olds are more mature, just exposed to more mature material in which helps them make an even more irresponsible decision !

VDJ

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#223328 - 01/18/06 11:52 AM Re: What would you guys say? [Re: TeK9]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1672
Quote:

How do you know their a mcdojang? What are you basing this on, the yearly fees? Have you seen the quality of thier program, have you checked the instructors credentials?

Maybe you are just being biased.

This is just something eles you can think about before you try convincing anyone of anything. Who knows by checking out the other school you might want to join it. Good luck!




Come on Tek, a black belt in a year and half ? With 4 different styles ? Lets be realistic shall we. They might be able to master some techniques in 6 months, but a whole art in 18, let alone 4 ? I smell Mickey D's and the real art that is being mastered is the art of "CHA CHING", the cash register opening !

VDJ

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#223329 - 01/18/06 11:58 AM Re: What would you guys say? [Re: h2whoa]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1672
Quote:

All you have spoken about is the uniform and the fact that he does XMA...but he has learnt four different arts....I study more than four...so If I opened a school would that mean it was a McDojang!

You are telling us that he is versed in four arts and that he does patterns in tournaments and can create his own.....tell me again how is this a McDojang?

*bows respectfully*




No I don't think it makes you a McDojang if you are studying 4 different arts and exposing your students to certain aspects of them, but are highly proficient in one style. I will say that you would be running one if you are claiming that you have mastered them all and can get people to acheive BB in 18 months in all 4 arts.

VDJ

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#223330 - 01/18/06 01:26 PM Re: What would you guys say? [Re: VDJ]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
I'm just saying that the description we are getting is very vague. Did he say they are studying four different arts at the saem time? Or are these arts merged together to build a new system? I need more info in order to label a school a MCdojang.

H'e mention that they do tournaments, that doesn't mean they are a mcdojang, nor does wearing patches.

I need to know about monthly prices, yearly contracts, promotional fees, such as belts, stripes/tips, certificate fees, are there initial fees plus the monthly/yearly ones? Is there a last months fee, because soe schools do this.

Are there special programs? for instance Some traditional schools have a regular program then charge an additional season fee for special tournament classes, also if your student needs additional help they can recieve private lessons at a discount fee. Sometimes it cost extra to join a Little Dragons club or a Black Belt club. All these promotional ways of marketing.

Does this shaolin kenpo/TKD dojang have all those gimmicks above? If so they are a MCdojang.

Until you find out, then you cant label it that.

Wow did I miss any fee's? oh my god I got one more fee. A "late fee" if you fail to pay your monthly/yearly fee within a certain time they may charge additional "late fee"

Get back to us and let us know MeaN. And dont sell yourself short, I think asking this question was a good idea. I would be exactly like you, I wouldn't want my family to get ripped off.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#223331 - 01/18/06 10:19 PM Re: What would you guys say? [Re: TeK9]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1672
Quote:

I'm just saying that the description we are getting is very vague. Did he say they are studying four different arts at the saem time? Or are these arts merged together to build a new system? I need more info in order to label a school a MCdojang.

H'e mention that they do tournaments, that doesn't mean they are a mcdojang, nor does wearing patches.

I need to know about monthly prices, yearly contracts, promotional fees, such as belts, stripes/tips, certificate fees, are there initial fees plus the monthly/yearly ones? Is there a last months fee, because soe schools do this.

Are there special programs? for instance Some traditional schools have a regular program then charge an additional season fee for special tournament classes, also if your student needs additional help they can recieve private lessons at a discount fee. Sometimes it cost extra to join a Little Dragons club or a Black Belt club. All these promotional ways of marketing.

Does this shaolin kenpo/TKD dojang have all those gimmicks above? If so they are a MCdojang.

Until you find out, then you cant label it that.

Wow did I miss any fee's? oh my god I got one more fee. A "late fee" if you fail to pay your monthly/yearly fee within a certain time they may charge additional "late fee"

Get back to us and let us know MeaN. And dont sell yourself short, I think asking this question was a good idea. I would be exactly like you, I wouldn't want my family to get ripped off.





You list all of that yet leave out the most impoprtant,

BLACK BELT ACHEIVED IN 18 MONTHS !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Here, maybe this term will set better with you BELT FACTORY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There is more to a Mcdojang than fee's (although yes it factors in). Watering down the ranking system by pumping out black belts is a bigger concern to me than fee's.You can pay although fee's and still get good instruction. You can't good instruction by shortening your time in rank !

VDJ

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#223332 - 01/18/06 10:51 PM Re: What would you guys say? [Re: VDJ]
mean_fighter Offline
Member

Registered: 12/18/05
Posts: 160
Ok Im back with more information and more understanding. First off, yes Tek9 they are studying four martial arts at the same time. And the reason I still stand on the turm mcdojang is because the gentlemans name is on the top on school but is not there. Nor has he ever trained with head instructors there, A picture of the man doing a sidekick in my schools wall of fame says that he was local student there and is a four time world champion kickboxer, and is a millionare. He has twelve schools in the state of NY itself, and has three schools in every state along the east coast.

Another problem I have with this school is how the maine instructors learn the martial arst that they teach to there students. They claim that they are preparing to teach BJJ I ask who they are learning it from today, they replied that they hired some instructer to come in and give them some hardcore training for 8 weeks so that can, "master it" until now they are learning from video tapes.

That is why I do not want my brother training in that crappy place!

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#223333 - 01/19/06 07:27 AM Re: What would you guys say? [Re: mean_fighter]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1672
Quote:

Ok Im back with more information and more understanding. First off, yes Tek9 they are studying four martial arts at the same time. And the reason I still stand on the turm mcdojang is because the gentlemans name is on the top on school but is not there. Nor has he ever trained with head instructors there, A picture of the man doing a sidekick in my schools wall of fame says that he was local student there and is a four time world champion kickboxer, and is a millionare. He has twelve schools in the state of NY itself, and has three schools in every state along the east coast.

Another problem I have with this school is how the maine instructors learn the martial arst that they teach to there students. They claim that they are preparing to teach BJJ I ask who they are learning it from today, they replied that they hired some instructer to come in and give them some hardcore training for 8 weeks so that can, "master it" until now they are learning from video tapes.

That is why I do not want my brother training in that crappy place!





O.K.,

What more can be said. 8 weeks of hard training and video's LOL ! BJJ is one of the hardest arts to get a black belt in, over 10 years. Mean fighter please expose these frauds to who they are to the parents. Tell them to PLEASE do research on the arts that these so called experts claim to be in as so they can see that they are just after their money, AND talk to your parents about your little brither so you can save them their money as well. Good Luck !

VDJ

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#223334 - 01/19/06 10:56 AM Re: What would you guys say? [Re: h2whoa]
Sushi Offline
Member

Registered: 11/23/05
Posts: 93
Loc: Germany
Quote:

it is not up to us to go about trying to convince people we know the true and only path!
*bows respectfully*




to be very honest:
I do not want Taekwondo to be presented by little kiddies wearing black-belt at the age of 10 , after practising two years!! This is ridiculous!!
I am training hard - up to 15 hours a week for four years now and before it was 8 years of 4 to 8 hours a week!!- an I am a second degree BB - after 11 1/2 years !!
it just upsets me that BBs are produced for money and the quality is zero.
After two years you are still a beginner, nothing more , not an advanced taekwondoin at all. - just a beginner, and not worth wearing a black belt at all!!! - That is it. And according to WTF the minimum age for BBs is 16 years of age, that is why I am so p... off!

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#223335 - 01/19/06 06:51 PM Re: What would you guys say? [Re: Sushi]
onb Offline
Member

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 246
Loc: Canada
Sushi,

I totally agree, I've been training pretty hard for about 2.5 years now and I feel far from being a black belt (in fact I am far from it) If someone asked to wrap a BB around my waist, I would politely decline and then run for the exit. I only want mine once I've earned it.

I may not be as militantly against junior BBs as some on this forum (I'm still making up my mind on them) I do agree that the really young have no place being BBs other than to cheapen the achievements of BBs in martial arts as a whole... but as I said, I'm still making up my mind. Maybe I'll meet a junior BB that will impress the pants of me

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#223336 - 01/20/06 02:05 AM Re: What would you guys say? [Re: onb]
mean_fighter Offline
Member

Registered: 12/18/05
Posts: 160
I got home from TKD class today and within ten minuetes I recieved a call from the dojo that my little brothers friends and parents wish to attend. They were very angry with me they kept swithing back and forth on the phone and soon I was speeking to two head instructors at once saying,"You have no right to call us a mcdojo, what ever that is now you are trying to steal our students and telling them that what we teach is no good (they also used the F word more then once). They are wnting me and my head instructor to come in and show them how we do things. I feel that I may have accidentally got into some legal issues aswell. What should I do?!

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#223337 - 01/20/06 01:34 PM Re: What would you guys say? [Re: mean_fighter]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1672
Quote:

I got home from TKD class today and within ten minuetes I recieved a call from the dojo that my little brothers friends and parents wish to attend. They were very angry with me they kept swithing back and forth on the phone and soon I was speeking to two head instructors at once saying,"You have no right to call us a mcdojo, what ever that is now you are trying to steal our students and telling them that what we teach is no good (they also used the F word more then once). They are wnting me and my head instructor to come in and show them how we do things. I feel that I may have accidentally got into some legal issues aswell. What should I do?!




Don't do anything ! They are trying to intimidate you. Why are they calling you and not your instructor ? If they are not a "McDojo" why would they care how you do things ? Just ignore them. If there was a legal issue to be dealt with then they would be forced to have to prove that they are truly certified from a recognized org (ITF,WTF, GTF etc. etc.). If they call your home again give the phone to your parents. If they want to talk to your instructor, tell them they should call him (you should make your instructor aware of the situation as so he's not blindsided with a call IF it comes). Don't worry about being accused of trying to steal their students, it's probably how they got most of theirs. Oh one more thing, maybe you should have your parents inform your brothers friends parents that these so called "Professional" instructors called you and proceeded to cuss you out for voicing your opinion and exposing them. Do they want their kids influenced by such people ? Don't hide this from them,let them know.

VDJ

P.S. If they threaten you, it is THEY who will be on the brink of breaking the law !

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#223338 - 01/22/06 05:32 PM Re: What would you guys say? [Re: mean_fighter]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Very important to follow what VDJ suggests. Remember you are not in the wrongm you were not trying to steal thier students. These people who you were advising where your brother and his friends. There is no harm in what you did. And remember as far as gong to thier school and gaining some information about how thewy run the place, well that is not against the law. Any How to: martial art book clearly states that this is the best way to choose an MA school. You were just doing your homework. There is nothing wrong with that. Make sure you contact your instructor and let him know whats up, as VDJ said, next tome they call hand the phone over to your parents, inform your brothers friends parents about these calls.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#223339 - 01/22/06 07:04 PM Re: What would you guys say? [Re: VDJ]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote by VDJ -

Quote:

Don't do anything ! They are trying to intimidate you. Why are they calling you and not your instructor ? If they are not a "McDojo" why would they care how you do things ? Just ignore them. If there was a legal issue to be dealt with then they would be forced to have to prove that they are truly certified from a recognized org (ITF,WTF, GTF etc. etc.). If they call your home again give the phone to your parents. If they want to talk to your instructor, tell them they should call him (you should make your instructor aware of the situation as so he's not blindsided with a call IF it comes). Don't worry about being accused of trying to steal their students, it's probably how they got most of theirs. Oh one more thing, maybe you should have your parents inform your brothers friends parents that these so called "Professional" instructors called you and proceeded to cuss you out for voicing your opinion and exposing them. Do they want their kids influenced by such people ? Don't hide this from them,let them know.




I agree totally with VDJ. I was pretty sure this place was a McDojo from the original description. Now I am certain.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#223340 - 01/23/06 02:14 AM Re: What would you guys say? [Re: mean_fighter]
bacho Offline
Stranger

Registered: 12/07/05
Posts: 4
I can do better than that. I can give anyone a black belt in 24 hours for $40: $6 for belt, $25 for overnite shipping and $9 for a piece of paper saying that you are a black belt.
Wake up! Any serious student knows that it takes about three times longer than 1 1/2 years to get a true black belt. Let alone, just in one style.
Definately a McDonald school. Oh yeah, would you like fries with that belt?

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