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#222301 - 01/15/06 04:53 AM Re: Leg locks [Re: Fletch1]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
I understand your post, but this brings yet another question. The spetznas were practicing Sambo alot, did they know of these flaws in the leg locks? How did they overcome this obstacle?

Or is it just me, the spetznas didn't fight H2H as much as we believe they do.

Thanks for the info Fletch, I think I'm going to look into those weaknesses in my next sparring session. Oh, I have to agree, it takes a lot more power to create pain in leg locks than in arm locks. Good thing I was born strong.

Oh, what's the weakness of the Boston Crab? It seems like the most favored option[at least for me] if you're able to catch a kick.

-Taison out


Edited by Taison (01/15/06 04:55 AM)
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#222302 - 01/15/06 11:10 AM Re: Leg locks [Re: Taison]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
Boston Crab?

I would say the weakness is that it is extremely low percentage on anyone with experience.

The idea of "catching a kick" and throwing on a Boston Crab taks us way out of the "game" (probable) mode and back into the "technique" (possible) mode. Yes, it's possible. Many things are. Haven't seen a Boston Crab done on an experienced player, ever. Seen the other leg locks more times than I can count.

I am not talking about weaknesses per se, but about compromises. Lower body joint locks are higher risk and lower probabilty of success. If you lose a position on a leg, you lose much more advantage than you would on an arm.
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#222303 - 01/15/06 04:36 PM Re: Leg locks [Re: Fletch1]
AndrewGreen Offline
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Registered: 01/11/06
Posts: 170
Quote:


I would say the weakness is that it is extremely low percentage on anyone with experience.





Yup, 1/2 boston crab is a rarity, a full one is near impossible.

Quote:


I am not talking about weaknesses per se, but about compromises. Lower body joint locks are higher risk and lower probabilty of success. If you lose a position on a leg, you lose much more advantage than you would on an arm.




Nah, I disagree.

Go for a arm bar and fail you are likely sidemounted. Go for a triangle and fail, likely side mounted.

Something like a toehold can be done without giving up much, in fact some leg locks can even be pulled off from inferior positions. All depends on how good with them you are, but I would not call them more high risk.
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#222304 - 01/15/06 06:41 PM Re: Leg locks [Re: AndrewGreen]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida

To qualify this, I'll stipulate that since this is a discussion of JJ as opposed to BJJ/ Freestyle Grappling, the question revolves around SD and the need to protect oneself. This distinction has to be made, otherwise all kinds of Kamikazee moves that you can get away with on the mat, would be seen as something valid for SD. This clearly is not the case.

I am not anti leglock. I am just looking at the practicality of leg locks for the street where maintaining the ability/ option to dfisengage is paramount. There is much scarifice involved in going for many leglocks, that tend to commit you to the limbs least likely to be brandishing weapons, etc. It should make more sense to fight conservatively when on the street where you should be holding someone and punching them, looking for an opportunity to get away, as opposed to getting tied up with their legs.

This is where the game vs technique thing comes to a head. People who roll alot figure out what works and doesn't work for them under the pressure of randori and trim their arsenal accordingly. People who do not roll alot are free to learn and memorize as many techniques as they want.

My goal is to keep things in perspective. This is pretty much the reason that I thought the BJJ forum a better place to discuss the topic.


Edited by Fletch1 (01/15/06 06:43 PM)
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#222305 - 01/15/06 06:56 PM Re: Leg locks [Re: Taison]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
For a discussion of Sambo, I am admittedly no expert.

What I do know however, is that Sambo was designed as a Martial Art first and then addressed as a Sport, like Judo. Is Sport Sambo, there are no chokes. Ways to win are by perfect throw (ippon), pin or by submission. Submissions are against the arms and legs.

I have heard that the idea of attacking the leg comes from the philosophy of injuring one combatant and taking away his mobility so that his team had to carry him and thus further impair their group combat abiilty.

Russia's implementation of Sambo as their combatives program of choice was based heavily on it's option for sportive training. The ability to test the training under competitve pressure, the team and competitive spirit building effect related to competition and the idea that the soldiers actually enjoyed it, all had a very important influence over Sambo's selection.

Funny that for much the same reasons, many elements of BJJ have been incorporated into the US Army's combative program.
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#222306 - 01/15/06 09:16 PM Re: Leg locks [Re: Fletch1]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
The thing I like about you is that you like keep this discussion related to SD, I am very grateful for that.

Now after doing a randori, I tried taking 2 people on at once and strangely, it was a lot harder going for the leg locks when you had two people against you. I felt like it took like 3-7 more seconds for my opponent submit and in those 3-7 seconds his partner would just come in and pull my out of the lock. I tried using arm-locks and it was way faster to tap a guy out. If it was real SD situation, his arm would have been broken before his partner could come in and interfere. Yet again, I feel that tangling with your opponent in outnumbered situation is really bad for your health, yet if I keep to striking, I won't do much either. .

I like this discussion but I think it's more oriented towards the MMA, so let's leave it here.

-Taison out
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