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#222291 - 01/13/06 05:59 AM Leg locks
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
Ok guys, I know this ought to be in the MMA forum but seeing that we, Judo and Jujutsu people, need more weapons to our already, powerful, arsenal.

So, to make the story short, let's get some leg locks techniques. I've been searching hard for these and the art that has been catching my attention for quite a while now is; Sambo wrestling. A close relative to Judo, I believe that the techniques the sambo people have will easily blend in. But! Any leg lock techniques is appreciated.

Let's get some pictures up with explanation. I would happily share when I get some. So, what are you waiting for? Start posting!

-Taison out
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#222292 - 01/13/06 07:53 AM Re: Leg locks [Re: Taison]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Uhh, JJJ already has leg locks. They're just less common techniques.
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#222293 - 01/13/06 01:32 PM Re: Leg locks [Re: Taison]
AndrewGreen Offline
shadow-lurker

Registered: 01/11/06
Posts: 170
Straight ankle lock - flex the ankle straight, usually catching the foot in your armpit and arching. Usually the firs type taught.

Kneebar - similar to a armbar, but done on the leg. Hips have to be tight to the body.

Toehold - Grab the toes with one hand, figure four grip and flex them inward at an angle.

Heel hook - These are dangerous in that pain does not always come BEFORE injury, this is where you twist the foot which stretches and tears the ligiments in the knee.

Calf compression - wedge an forearm or a shin into the inside of the knee, press their foot to their butt and out with whatever you got wedged. Same idea as a bicep splice / short arm scissor.

Shin lock - pulling the foot inwards and using the center of the inside of the shin as a leveredge point.

Achilles lock - Compress the achilles tendon, works real well on people with tight tendons, not as well on people with longer ones.

Hip locks - Extending the hip backwards (think boston crab, but can be done from other positions)

That should cover all the basic types, as for specific set ups and techniques I have a few on my site, if there is a way to attach images I'll try and post a few in here.

Not too familliar with ubbthreads, the only image button I see is for external images, any way to do them as attachments?
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#222294 - 01/13/06 06:11 PM Re: Leg locks [Re: Taison]
BigRod Offline
Does it all

Registered: 02/10/05
Posts: 736
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Go to www.lockflow.com, they have "How-To's" for all the basic leg locks.

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#222295 - 01/14/06 04:25 AM Re: Leg locks [Re: BigRod]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
Thanks guys, really appreciated.

Tried experimenting with some Pro-wrestling locks. In practice they can be done but while sparring, damn! It takes like 30 years to get into one. E.g. Figure 4 leg lock! ! Took me an eternity to get into plus when the uke was resisting, it was near to impossible to get this one in. The scorpion leg lock[sasori-gatame] a'la Bret "hitman" Hart style, that this one was really hard to get into especially with the uke twisting to the sides. .

I tried 3 sambo leg locks too. . One was like pulling their knees towards your "groin" area as your knees works as a leverage against their leg. This one was brutal. Easily done after ANY judo throw.

Another leg lock which I found really interesting was while in the position of the juji-gatame [armbar] If the uke successfully resist your attempt to armbar, let go of his wrist but still squeeze your knees together to lock his arm in position and with both hands go for the ankle and pull it towards you. . You should now be in a position where you are in armbar position but doing the calf-compression.

The last one I tried during randori was some type of Russian style Single Leg Boston Crab. I caught my uke in a "yoko gake" or "side-hook". After I got him onto the ground, he turned his back to me and layed stomach down. I pulled his leg and grabbed it just like a boston crab but then I remember to do it "Russian" style. After sitting down, I lied down onto my side and the guy tapped out. He said it was a lot more painful than the usual boston crab I do. The Russians really are hardcore when it comes to leg locks!

Oh, Thanks to BigRod for the website. It was awesome!
Any more techniques anyone want to share?

-Taison out
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#222296 - 01/14/06 05:39 AM Re: Leg locks [Re: Taison]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
Tried another one found it at lockflow.com

It's called Sambo lock, but I think i'm doing something wrong here. . . Anyway, I'm gonna ask my teacher as soon as he comes back from his little vacation.

-Taison out
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#222297 - 01/14/06 02:02 PM Re: Leg locks [Re: Taison]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
Based on the original intended focus of this forum for discussion of classical & traditional JJ & Judo, I do think that this topic would be better suited to the BJJ/ MMA forum. I say this as there has been a clearly defined line between established Jiujitsu/ Jujitsu/ Jujutsu where the training methods are quite different than that of Modern BJJ or Combat utilizing Sumbission Holds such as Leg Locks.

The method of training keeps a rather narrow focus on learning "techniques" rather than developing "Game". The world of leg locks, I feel, is better explored via the latter method. That's just me.

With that being said, leg locks can be useful arsenal. They can also be quite a distraction. Legs are larager, longer and generaly more difficult to control. They also frequently result in your own legs being made available to your opponent to attack. Food for thought.

People might say that you can use a leg lock in the street to disable an attacker. I would argue that if you have to go for a leg lock in the street, it would be such dire circumstances that it would be to get someone off you and escape quickly. Otherwise, you compromise your position and your mobility because it takes more of your body mass to attack the leg and it draws the fight away from the upper body where the most decisive attack is,....the neck.
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#222298 - 01/14/06 11:58 PM Re: Leg locks [Re: Fletch1]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
Quote:

I do think that this topic would be better suited to the BJJ/ MMA forum.



I already said that. .

But, I think that Judo with leg locks, it's really something to explore. Imagine all the lost possibilities you get if you just narrow down your area of expertize. Me, I'm really awful with arm locks such as the arm-wrap, chicken-wing, etc, but I did discover that I was more atuned to leg locks.

I asked my instructor and he taught me one technique, the achillies hold. I've been using that technique in almost every randori, and I feel it really blends in with Judo.

Getting my opponent in the Tai-otoshi and then I have their legs INFRONT of me, yet if I was to be a normal judo-ka, I wouldn't have much option but if I utilize leg locks there's a lot more option.

My judo is like a hamburger. Most do it without cheeze but me, however, want cheeze.

-Taison out
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#222299 - 01/15/06 03:51 AM Re: Leg locks [Re: Taison]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
My point (one of them) is that although leg locks can bring about a submission in a controlled environment, they can cause a lot of confusion in what transfers more readily to SD.

The Straight Knee Lock or Knee Bar is designed to hyperextend or "break" the knee much like an armbar does to the elbow. It takes significantly more effort to overpower someone's leg than it does their arm however. With the possibility of getting booted in the head by the other leg, the task becomes more difficult. To be effective, you have to really be on the ground with them and in a very compromised position where you have your back turned to them and your back and neck exposed.

The Achilles Lock or Straight Ankle Lock puts painful pressure on the tendons betweenthe heel and the calf. It can in extreme circumstances, rupture the tendon but absent a supreme amount of force, will not break the bone. It hurts quite a bit but absent the tap out option, tends to make people really mad where they (again) attempt to boot stomp you in the face with their free leg.

The Heel Hook (Straight and Reverse) applies twisting spiral/ torquing prerssure to one or more of three general points of the lower leg. The ankle/ heel, the long bones (tibia & fibula) and the connection between those bones to the knee. It can and will cause pain and lasting injury. This is the most dangerous lock to spar with and has been made illegal in many grappling events due to the high incident of injury.

More later.....
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#222300 - 01/15/06 04:18 AM Re: Leg locks [Re: Taison]
devinw Offline
Member

Registered: 06/11/05
Posts: 66
Loc: Utah
You are right judo,does have leg locks and were still being used in Judo. These leg locks can be traced from Fusen-Ryu Jujutsu here is an example of one from E-Budo.com and here is an other example at of "Kata Ashi Hishigi".

In the the book Complete Kano Jiu-Jitsu by Katsukuma Higashi and Harry Irving Hancock has some 1906 photographs showing two Judo leg-locks

Humbly posted,
Devin Willis

Resource.
Fusen-Ryu Jujutsu article From Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaInteresting Judo Photos

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#222301 - 01/15/06 04:53 AM Re: Leg locks [Re: Fletch1]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
I understand your post, but this brings yet another question. The spetznas were practicing Sambo alot, did they know of these flaws in the leg locks? How did they overcome this obstacle?

Or is it just me, the spetznas didn't fight H2H as much as we believe they do.

Thanks for the info Fletch, I think I'm going to look into those weaknesses in my next sparring session. Oh, I have to agree, it takes a lot more power to create pain in leg locks than in arm locks. Good thing I was born strong.

Oh, what's the weakness of the Boston Crab? It seems like the most favored option[at least for me] if you're able to catch a kick.

-Taison out


Edited by Taison (01/15/06 04:55 AM)
_________________________
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#222302 - 01/15/06 11:10 AM Re: Leg locks [Re: Taison]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
Boston Crab?

I would say the weakness is that it is extremely low percentage on anyone with experience.

The idea of "catching a kick" and throwing on a Boston Crab taks us way out of the "game" (probable) mode and back into the "technique" (possible) mode. Yes, it's possible. Many things are. Haven't seen a Boston Crab done on an experienced player, ever. Seen the other leg locks more times than I can count.

I am not talking about weaknesses per se, but about compromises. Lower body joint locks are higher risk and lower probabilty of success. If you lose a position on a leg, you lose much more advantage than you would on an arm.
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#222303 - 01/15/06 04:36 PM Re: Leg locks [Re: Fletch1]
AndrewGreen Offline
shadow-lurker

Registered: 01/11/06
Posts: 170
Quote:


I would say the weakness is that it is extremely low percentage on anyone with experience.





Yup, 1/2 boston crab is a rarity, a full one is near impossible.

Quote:


I am not talking about weaknesses per se, but about compromises. Lower body joint locks are higher risk and lower probabilty of success. If you lose a position on a leg, you lose much more advantage than you would on an arm.




Nah, I disagree.

Go for a arm bar and fail you are likely sidemounted. Go for a triangle and fail, likely side mounted.

Something like a toehold can be done without giving up much, in fact some leg locks can even be pulled off from inferior positions. All depends on how good with them you are, but I would not call them more high risk.
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#222304 - 01/15/06 06:41 PM Re: Leg locks [Re: AndrewGreen]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida

To qualify this, I'll stipulate that since this is a discussion of JJ as opposed to BJJ/ Freestyle Grappling, the question revolves around SD and the need to protect oneself. This distinction has to be made, otherwise all kinds of Kamikazee moves that you can get away with on the mat, would be seen as something valid for SD. This clearly is not the case.

I am not anti leglock. I am just looking at the practicality of leg locks for the street where maintaining the ability/ option to dfisengage is paramount. There is much scarifice involved in going for many leglocks, that tend to commit you to the limbs least likely to be brandishing weapons, etc. It should make more sense to fight conservatively when on the street where you should be holding someone and punching them, looking for an opportunity to get away, as opposed to getting tied up with their legs.

This is where the game vs technique thing comes to a head. People who roll alot figure out what works and doesn't work for them under the pressure of randori and trim their arsenal accordingly. People who do not roll alot are free to learn and memorize as many techniques as they want.

My goal is to keep things in perspective. This is pretty much the reason that I thought the BJJ forum a better place to discuss the topic.


Edited by Fletch1 (01/15/06 06:43 PM)
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#222305 - 01/15/06 06:56 PM Re: Leg locks [Re: Taison]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
For a discussion of Sambo, I am admittedly no expert.

What I do know however, is that Sambo was designed as a Martial Art first and then addressed as a Sport, like Judo. Is Sport Sambo, there are no chokes. Ways to win are by perfect throw (ippon), pin or by submission. Submissions are against the arms and legs.

I have heard that the idea of attacking the leg comes from the philosophy of injuring one combatant and taking away his mobility so that his team had to carry him and thus further impair their group combat abiilty.

Russia's implementation of Sambo as their combatives program of choice was based heavily on it's option for sportive training. The ability to test the training under competitve pressure, the team and competitive spirit building effect related to competition and the idea that the soldiers actually enjoyed it, all had a very important influence over Sambo's selection.

Funny that for much the same reasons, many elements of BJJ have been incorporated into the US Army's combative program.
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#222306 - 01/15/06 09:16 PM Re: Leg locks [Re: Fletch1]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
The thing I like about you is that you like keep this discussion related to SD, I am very grateful for that.

Now after doing a randori, I tried taking 2 people on at once and strangely, it was a lot harder going for the leg locks when you had two people against you. I felt like it took like 3-7 more seconds for my opponent submit and in those 3-7 seconds his partner would just come in and pull my out of the lock. I tried using arm-locks and it was way faster to tap a guy out. If it was real SD situation, his arm would have been broken before his partner could come in and interfere. Yet again, I feel that tangling with your opponent in outnumbered situation is really bad for your health, yet if I keep to striking, I won't do much either. .

I like this discussion but I think it's more oriented towards the MMA, so let's leave it here.

-Taison out
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