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#222222 - 01/12/06 08:04 PM TKD traditional training methods
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Hey guys I just thought of a traditional training method that really annoyed me. I didn't mind so much practicing forms. But practicing individual form techniques durring line drills was terrible. ex: Moving forward and backwards in a front forward stance while punching. Man I really hated this. I'm sure it helped conditioned my thighs, but other than that I felt there were better ways we could be training. Different methods.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
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#222223 - 01/13/06 09:59 AM Re: TKD traditional training methods [Re: TeK9]
Paulol Offline
Member

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 112
line work is fine for kids! and does give you the chance to repeat movements in isolation. but partner work is much better for you!

you can learn targeting (instead of fighting that imaginary person infront of you, cause my knees are in biz over fighting him!!) on a real person.

it has to be practical partner work though. as step-sparring can be a off the mark when it comes to real application and often does not reflect the pattern taught at that level. mostly it's made into an overly complicated add on to training.

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#222224 - 01/14/06 03:13 AM Re: TKD traditional training methods [Re: Paulol]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Yea I had issues with the traditional front stance, I mean what was the point, if I ever have to fight someone my stance wont be nearly has low. If I am to defend myself in self defense sure, but in a fight I would never get that low.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#222225 - 01/14/06 09:04 AM Re: TKD traditional training methods [Re: TeK9]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
i find it usefull for getting good technique.also combinations of techniques .repetition repetition repetition.building muscle memory.getting power etc.the full body movement that will be abbreviated when you have to do it for real.
i find myself automatilcaly chambering my punch for example..where a jab works as an abbreviated chamber for a full power punch even in a gaurd up fighting stance.to get more power and getting my hips into it etc etc.from things like line work and repetative work.
its good for the overlooked hand work in TKD like combining open hand and knife handstrikes and forearms and elbows etc.
i see it bit like shadow boxing where your realy realy getting the technique down.with a fine comb.then if i come out of the full stances to a more realistic fighting stance im getting closer to realism still though applying as much as i can of the full technique in less time,using muscle memory.
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#222226 - 01/14/06 09:31 AM Re: TKD traditional training methods [Re: matxtx]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
also i beleive doing the blocks in there fullness in linework or sitting stance is better than against an opponent early on so you can get the technique.or else you wont be able to understand the parry's, locks and takedowns that are in them.or it will be harder at least.
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#222227 - 01/14/06 11:50 AM Re: TKD traditional training methods [Re: matxtx]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
Quote:


i find it usefull for getting good technique.also combinations of techniques .repetition repetition repetition.building muscle memory.getting power etc.the full body movement that will be abbreviated when you have to do it for real.
i find myself automatilcaly chambering my punch for example..where a jab works as an abbreviated chamber for a full power punch even in a gaurd up fighting stance.to get more power and getting my hips into it etc etc.from things like line work and repetative work.
its good for the overlooked hand work in TKD like combining open hand and knife handstrikes and forearms and elbows etc.
i see it bit like shadow boxing where your realy realy getting the technique down.with a fine comb.then if i come out of the full stances to a more realistic fighting stance im getting closer to realism still though applying as much as i can of the full technique in less time,using muscle memory.




I agree. It may not be that realistic, but there is nothing better for getting good strong technique. Just as with other training methods, it must be done with other types of training; but I still value it. I especially like practicing kicks with it, since it allows you to practice balance, technique and strength, all in one.

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#222228 - 01/14/06 12:00 PM Re: TKD traditional training methods [Re: Supremor]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
The thing to remember here is that one of the main aims of Eastern Martial arts was to better oneself.

In Iaido for instance, there is no freeplay, no room for individuals to do what they feel like.

Now to the untrained eye, this may seem pointless, and not very useful.

But the underlying philosophy behind this is that we, as human beings, can sometimes just do what we feel like, and not what we should. Iaido teaches that you must perfect yourself by doing things that you may not want to, but, are ultimately good for you. You learn to do what you should, not what you want.

So to is it the same in arts such as Shotokan and Tae Kwon Do. Perfection is a habit. Practice front stances, perfecting them as best you can with all effort, and you can learn that with equal effort all things in your life can also be perfected, because you do what you should, (what is good for you), not what you feel like (which is not good for you a lot of the time, e.g. sitting in front of the TV and eating chocolate because you feel like it.)

Hope this helps!


Edited by Prizewriter (01/14/06 12:01 PM)
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#222229 - 01/15/06 05:16 AM Re: TKD traditional training methods [Re: TeK9]
Paulol Offline
Member

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 112
Quote:

Yea I had issues with the traditional front stance, I mean what was the point, if I ever have to fight someone my stance wont be nearly has low. If I am to defend myself in self defense sure, but in a fight I would never get that low.


So is your self defence not about defending yourself in a fight??

Is the front stance you talk about a walking stance in ITF TKD??

When you realise that the traditional movements and stances have a solid base (as in the stance being strong in certain directions) then you will find better ways and reasons to use them in a fight!!

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#222230 - 01/15/06 02:59 PM Re: TKD traditional training methods [Re: Prizewriter]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
I liked your response, it gave me something to think about, although I am not sure I have the answeryet, I just thought you should know that your post was very well put. Hopefully, I can get back to you on it.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#222231 - 01/15/06 03:05 PM Re: TKD traditional training methods [Re: Paulol]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Hi

My brother and I often practice self defense and kick boxing sparring, when we practice traditional one/three step sparring we used to use deep forward stances, but hen we realize that in a real confrontation they would not be effective. We have found that the walking/upright fighting stances of modern/sports taekwondo are more effective, similr to a western boxing style stance. I suoppose we value mobility over sturdiness, however, we feel we maintain good balances with our fighting stance + mobility. If you notice now adays, many jujitsu schools no longer favor straditional deep stances, they now practice using shorter upright more mobile stances. Because this allows for greater speed. Have you ever seen Wally Jays "small circle jujitsu"
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#222232 - 01/15/06 07:20 PM Re: TKD traditional training methods [Re: TeK9]
Paulol Offline
Member

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 112
My mentor Prof. Rick Clark has trained with the Jays for quite a while.

What I was aiming at thought is that the more trad stances are better used for throwing and locking than the usual striking. A sitting or horse riding stance is great for keeping you upright after hip tossing someone. A walking or front stance is good for meeting and redirecting forward momentum, L-stances are good for pulling or bushed back etc etc...

what you do with your brother sounds great!!

it reminds me of my early days out the back garden with my best buddy knocking eachother around

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#222233 - 01/20/06 01:05 PM Re: TKD traditional training methods [Re: TeK9]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
yea ,deep lunging stances arnt realistic.though thats not the point.its a bit like if someone said you need to do 10 pressups for a test.it would be better to train to do 40 so that you will definity get the 10 easy.so if i train the traditional stances,when i need a steady stance ill get into one without thinking because iv trained over what i need.i beleive this can be said for all the traditional techniques.over compensating to make sure you at least get some kind of stance ,or strike or block,power etc...early on in training its best to do the full move,as you progress becoming free'er.
i was watching some muay thai and when the guy dug in and threw a lot of punches he planted his feet and was in a fairly wide stance for the little time he was piling into the other guy.watch some fighting and yourl see,even if its a split second.
of course it also shows too that theres other ways to be able to get good stances and strikes without doing traditional things or forms.though i think thats more to do with moving forward in knowlegde of body science and figuring others maybe quicker ways because as humans we do move forward and want it faster.it doesnt mean though that traditional training is of no use.it just means traditional training is missunderstood.
_________________________
I point my saxaphone at the rare Booted Gorilla.

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#222234 - 01/20/06 05:16 PM Re: TKD traditional training methods [Re: Prizewriter]
Moogong Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/06/03
Posts: 24
Loc: West Point, Va United States
Quote:

The thing to remember here is that one of the main aims of Eastern Martial arts was to better oneself.

In Iaido for instance, there is no freeplay, no room for individuals to do what they feel like.

Now to the untrained eye, this may seem pointless, and not very useful.

But the underlying philosophy behind this is that we, as human beings, can sometimes just do what we feel like, and not what we should. Iaido teaches that you must perfect yourself by doing things that you may not want to, but, are ultimately good for you. You learn to do what you should, not what you want.

So to is it the same in arts such as Shotokan and Tae Kwon Do. Perfection is a habit. Practice front stances, perfecting them as best you can with all effort, and you can learn that with equal effort all things in your life can also be perfected, because you do what you should, (what is good for you), not what you feel like (which is not good for you a lot of the time, e.g. sitting in front of the TV and eating chocolate because you feel like it.)

Hope this helps!





Prizewriter, there is a lot of wisdom in those words. That is what I try to stress to my students. Martial arts in general is about sacrifice and doing the things you may find boring over and over again until they are perfected. It's the same with every art from taekwondo to bjj.
If everything in martial arts was easy and fun, the world would be overflowing with 9th degree black belts.

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#222235 - 01/20/06 11:51 PM Re: TKD traditional training methods [Re: Moogong]
SaBumNim Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/05
Posts: 47
I am a firm believer in the importance of training in the basics and fundamentals of martial arts throughout one’s martial arts career, regardless of belt rank. These basics form the foundation of everything else you will ever learn in the realm of martial arts. In every class I teach we practice punching from a sitting stance (single, double, and triple). We then practice basic motion which includes punching and blocking while stepping into a walking (front) stance up and down the length of the dojang. Basic kicks from a walking stance are also practiced. None of these things will ever be used in a real life self defense situation, or even in a sparring situation for that matter. So why do we spend so much time practicing these techniques?

Earlier I said that these techniques form the foundation of tae kwon do. A foundation is an often underappreciated thing. Think of the foundation of your house. Actually, first think of your house. What do you do there? You sleep, you eat, you relax, you play games. Let me ask then, have you ever slept directly on your foundation, have you ever eaten a meal directly off of your foundation, have you ever played a game while sitting comfortably on your foundation? Do you even know what your foundation is made from (concrete block, poured concrete, concrete slab or other)? I would venture to say that the person who built your house cared a lot more about the foundation of your house than you do. But without the foundation, your house would not be there.

This to me is what the basic training methods are all about. I care very much about the soundness of my student fundamentals, even if they cannot yet see the value of them. I understand that it takes a great deal of time to perceive how practicing movements that you will never make in a practical application can benefit you in a real life situation. This is the nature of martial arts, and having faith in one’s instructor. I have mentioned in some of my earlier posts that there are things that can be taught ant things that must be learned…this is one of the latter. Natural athletic ability can take you a great distance in the martial arts. However, you will eventually encounter someone with as much or more ability than yourself. This is when a strong foundation will mean the difference between winning and losing.

In closing let me say that this is a very important topic to me. If you have a qualified instructor, there will be a reason for everything you do in the course of your training, whether you realize it or not. In a very simplified form, I see it this way: basic motion builds a bridge to forms, forms build a bridge to one/three step sparring, one step sparring forms a bridge between forms and sparring, and sparring builds a bridge to real life situations. As I said this is a very simplified view, but one that often helps my students understand why they are learning what they are learning.

SaBum Nim

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