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#221246 - 01/10/06 05:17 PM Iron Palm Training
Savate Offline
Member

Registered: 10/23/04
Posts: 48
Loc: New Jersey
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Palm How many Kung Fu students practice Iron Palm? What is your opinion of hand conditioning, internal or external?

With respect!

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#221247 - 01/10/06 06:07 PM Re: Iron Palm Training [Re: Savate]
WuXing Offline
Member

Registered: 10/24/05
Posts: 481
Loc: Idaho, USA
I have been taught a form of iron bone/palm training, which includes practice very similar to what the article describes. I only use the bean bag for palm, back of hand, and claws though. A striking board is used for palm heel and knife hand. The forearms and shins are also conditioned by striking a heavy bag. Linaments are always used afterwards. I feel it is a beneficial practice for toughening and strengthening striking surfaces. It always has to be in moderation, though. I don't think anyone wants a hand they can't use for anything but striking. I was taught to do both hands, arms, and legs equally, and never more than once a week at first.

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#221248 - 01/10/06 07:00 PM Re: Iron Palm Training [Re: WuXing]
Savate Offline
Member

Registered: 10/23/04
Posts: 48
Loc: New Jersey
Thank you for your feedback! I had an Isshin Ryu instructor who trained external training which made his hand look like it had no knuckles. He would have us hold 50 lbs plates and have three guys hold it up. When he punched it he knocked us all backwards. It was impressive, but he could not even write with that hand. The only thing that his right hand was good for was a piston like punch. Regular Makiwara training, I don't think, produces a hand like that?

I have been practicing the way the article states because that is the way my Sifu teaches Iron Palm. I have noticed that my hands feel stronger and my resistance to pain in the area of my knuckles is building up tolerance. I haven't progressed past the bean bag because you are suppose to smash all the mung beans before progress to the flat stones.

From my prior boxing background, I am surprised that my hands are not anymore conditioned than they are from all the years of hitting the 150 lbs bag. I know that I used handwraps and bag gloves, but I would think that the shock of hitting the bag would have conditioned my hands. I have the snapping power but not the conditioned hands?

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#221249 - 01/11/06 01:55 AM Re: Iron Palm Training [Re: Savate]
VigilanteSilver Offline
Member

Registered: 01/02/06
Posts: 33
Loc: Location, Location!
Sounds like you're going about it the right way. Another form of training my Sifu told me about is something she learned at one point in China. Apparently while she was there, when they had her and some other instructors train, they had these big metal drums full of water, and you were supposed to do palm thrusts as hard as you could into the water. This is supposed to toughen your hands without injuring them. I've also heard of punching hot sand, but that doesn't sound like any fun at all. I think the Iron Palm routine is probably best. As for the boxing, I'm guessing that the bag gloves absorbed just enough energy to prevent intense conditioning, but I'm not a boxer, so I'm just talking from a theoretical standpoint there.
_________________________
Thank you sir, may I have another?!

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#221250 - 01/11/06 03:10 AM Re: Iron Palm Training [Re: Savate]
ShenLungStudent Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/11/06
Posts: 5
Loc: California
I practice a style of internal iron palm training that is very different from the wikipedia article. Iron palm, in general, is extremely effective and something I think every devout practitioner should undergo. When I first received the invitation to learn Iron Palm from my instructor it came with a picture of one of the students he trained with breaking 10 bricks at once with the back of his hand (I can e-mail a copy of this picture to anyone who's interested). Shr Fu warned very strongly (for the exact reasons listed by some of the other posts in this forum) against external iron palm training as it permanently damages and disfigures the hand. I'm in my second season now (it takes 3 to fully develop the hand, however, one can continue to train the hand as long as they like) and there have been substantive internal changes to my hand. Externally my hand may appear very slightly thicker or 'fuller', but there are no other visual indications of the training. However, whenever I have someone touch the knife-edge of my hand they are almost always shocked by how much more dense it feels .
_________________________
www.hsing-i.com

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#221251 - 01/11/06 03:15 AM Re: Iron Palm Training [Re: Savate]
ShenLungStudent Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/11/06
Posts: 5
Loc: California
As a boxer you were probably conditioning your wrist and your index and middle finger knuckles, not the hand proper. Knuckle push-ups are also very good for this.
_________________________
www.hsing-i.com

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#221252 - 01/11/06 01:13 PM Re: Iron Palm Training [Re: ShenLungStudent]
Savate Offline
Member

Registered: 10/23/04
Posts: 48
Loc: New Jersey
I am retired from boxing and Savate as I have moved from Detroit to New Jersey, and so I now take Northern Long Fist. I look for the most traditional Kung Fu school I could find in my are and have been studying Long Fist for a year. My sifu he me try Iron Palm because I am not knew to martial arts though I am new to Kung Fu. So I am a Long Fist student today.

My hands seem to always feel heavy and my fingers feel 100 percent stronger. My instructor said that was a good sign. So I am withing my first 100 days of training.

I did not have access to Kung Fu in Detroit. Detroit only has Japanese and Korean styles, as I was lucky to have found a good Savate trainer. I wanted to take Kung Fum but the closet traditional school was down in Ohio - Green Drago Studios which was to far.
_________________________
Joe B.

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#221253 - 01/14/06 08:46 AM Re: Iron Palm Training [Re: Savate]
monji112000 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/05/04
Posts: 177
I used to study a style that used Hung Gar style Iron palm. I never had much luck with it.
I don't prescribe to the Bending Iron poles with your throat, breaking bricks, ect.. I haven't seen anyone who can do that stuff in a real fight. Maybe some people can really do that stuff.. but I just havn't come across them.

That being said I do knuckle pushups, punch mung bean bags, and the heavy bag. I know that your hand(knuckle) can be very hard but if you don't have strong wrists.. you are going to hurt yourself. The wrist is the weakest link if you are punching someone. You don't have to have a hand of steel. What good is that if you cripple your hands? so what if you bleed a little after a fight? just make sure you can win! If your wrist and hand can dish out the pain, without any fancy Qi Kung why waste the time?

Best Qi Kung exerciser is running.

Make sure you get practice on the heavy bag without gloves and hand wraps.

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#221254 - 01/14/06 10:10 AM Re: Iron Palm Training [Re: monji112000]
Guy Offline
Member

Registered: 10/07/05
Posts: 68
Loc: Indiana USA
In my forms, there are so many palm strikes that I started to condition my hands for them too. But I take the gentle approach recommended in the many Iron Palm training sites I found on the Internet. And that is to use a bean bag and to strike it with just the weight of my hand, but do this hundreds or thousands of times per session. I do this sitting in a chair watching TV. I use this approach for all my conditioning. They say you need to use conditioning oils too, I havenít been using them but want too.

They also said that people who have their hands conditioned for the Iron Palm techniques actually prefer palm strikes over knuckle strikes because they can deliver more power with it. But what makes the palm or other open hand strikes so attractive to me is that you are less likely to draw blood from your enemies and risk getting contaminated by the AIDS virus.

Guy

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#221255 - 01/15/06 04:23 PM Re: Iron Palm Training [Re: Guy]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
I really hope you're kidding about that AIDS thing, Guy

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#221256 - 01/16/06 01:56 AM Re: Iron Palm Training [Re: Guy]
Savate Offline
Member

Registered: 10/23/04
Posts: 48
Loc: New Jersey
I never want to be a position where I have to back off my striking techniques because my knuckles hurt.

There was a hockey player from the Detroit Redwings that use to get into a lot of fights and he ended up receiving one knuckle surgery after another because his hands kept getting injured. The local new media kept talking about how much power he had because he broke another players cheekbone. I never saw that as a proof of power when guys get broken cheekbones in streetfights all the time. But the fact that he screwed up his knuckles doing it is pathetic.

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#221257 - 01/22/06 09:29 AM Re: Iron Palm Training [Re: ShikataGaNai]
Guy Offline
Member

Registered: 10/07/05
Posts: 68
Loc: Indiana USA
I'm not kidding about the AIDS thing.

Guy

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#221258 - 01/23/06 08:22 PM Re: Iron Palm Training [Re: Guy]
RyuuJitsu Offline
Member

Registered: 01/22/06
Posts: 25
Loc: every where and no where
i heard that you shouldnt do any iron training ( conditionin ) untill you have fully developed your chi or else you could go blind.

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#221259 - 01/24/06 01:09 AM Re: Iron Palm Training [Re: RyuuJitsu]
Natron Offline
Member

Registered: 12/14/05
Posts: 56
Loc: Illinois, USA
Quote:

heard that you shouldnt do any iron training ( conditionin ) untill you have fully developed your chi or else you could go blind.




K, think about it. Why would repeated abuse to your hands or extremities cause your vision to fail?

Welcome to logic. Make yourself at home.

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#221260 - 01/25/06 11:34 AM Re: Iron Palm Training [Re: RyuuJitsu]
JoelM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
Any relation to the other myth about using your hands and going blind?
_________________________
We should all take ourselves seriously...and then crumple that image up and toss it out the window.

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#221261 - 01/27/06 06:56 PM Re: Iron Palm Training [Re: JoelM]
Kosh Offline
Member

Registered: 03/04/05
Posts: 302
Loc: Novo mesto, Slovenia
LOL, JoelM hilarious.

As for going blind while doing the "regular" (man, JoelM now that association won`t get out of my head ) iron palm, I think it`s possible, but not likely.
I remember reading something from Jang Jwing Ming about doing pushups on the fingers. He said something about not doing them on fingertips, because it can effect (injure) the nerves there, and have a bad effect on the organs.
I think Mikhail Ryabko said that doing too many straight punches can make you go blind too.
So, I believe it`s possible...
_________________________
Peter ...Understanding is a three-edged sword...

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#221262 - 01/28/06 06:26 PM Re: Iron Palm Training [Re: Kosh]
RyuuJitsu Offline
Member

Registered: 01/22/06
Posts: 25
Loc: every where and no where
you can go blind by doing iron fist because your hand charkras have something to do with your eyes, and instead of acting like a jerk next time you could of just asked why that is.

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#221263 - 01/28/06 07:31 PM Re: Iron Palm Training [Re: RyuuJitsu]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

you can go blind by doing iron fist because your hand charkras have something to do with your eyes, and instead of acting like a jerk next time you could of just asked why that is.




RyuuJitsu, I am not sure who it is you think that is acting like a jerk. There is no scientific evidence that I am aware of relating hand injury or even stress to eye problems. If that was true, there would be legions of blind martial artists and construction workers. But there aren't.

Evidence, please. Otherwise, back off with the righteous indignation a bit.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#221264 - 01/28/06 07:35 PM Re: Iron Palm Training [Re: RyuuJitsu]
Guy Offline
Member

Registered: 10/07/05
Posts: 68
Loc: Indiana USA
Lots of people do iron palm training, why don't lots of iron palm trainers go blind? Can anyone name one case where iron palm training has lead to blindness, or is this just an unsubstantiated myth?

Guy


Edited by Guy (01/28/06 07:40 PM)

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#221265 - 01/28/06 10:56 PM Re: Iron Palm Training [Re: Guy]
jamestkdkungfu Offline
Member

Registered: 01/28/06
Posts: 113
i practice iron palm and i think it is great i havent hurt my hands since besides whe nthe guy step on my hand he was huge!

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#221266 - 01/29/06 12:39 AM Re: Iron Palm Training [Re: jamestkdkungfu]
RyuuJitsu Offline
Member

Registered: 01/22/06
Posts: 25
Loc: every where and no where
ok when i say blind in meant it'll stir up your vison after some time of training in iron fist ( i dont know about palm, knifehand, claw, or back hand training ). and it has something to do with the currents of energy building up during training that can lead to eye problems. btw my source is a chi expert. also if your meditating after training this would probably stop the building of currents in your hand and this is probaby what those iron training partioners that you were talking about would do after there training.

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#221267 - 01/29/06 10:13 PM Re: Iron Palm Training [Re: RyuuJitsu]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
You know something. . on my believe-o-meter, you have just hit "0".

Your source is a "chi expert". Well my old Sifu did chinese medicine, accupuncture, Tai chi and Ba qi quan. He said practice makes you stronger not weaker. He also said that build up of chi takes almost a life time.

Quote:

currents of energy building up during training that can lead to eye problems.



I don't know if you know this. From what I understand is, current flow from the body into the hand, not opposite. All energy is stored in the center of body, and then flows from there to the rest of the body. I'm not an internal expert but that's what many student told me.

Quote:

your meditating after training this would probably stop the building of currents in your hand



You could just use reverse breathing to stop excess of chi, but there's no need as one can not build up excess of chi unless you have been doing it for the last few years.

That's my 60 yuan.
-Taison out

For other members, please correct me if I'm wrong. I don't trust the other student that much and my old Sifu is dead. Can't imagine myself going to his grave and wake him up just to ask a stupid question.
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

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#221268 - 01/29/06 11:34 PM Re: Iron Palm Training [Re: Taison]
RyuuJitsu Offline
Member

Registered: 01/22/06
Posts: 25
Loc: every where and no where
okay whatever do what y'all want it was just a warning from what i was told.

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#221269 - 01/29/06 11:57 PM Re: Iron Palm Training [Re: Taison]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:


Quote:

currents of energy building up during training that can lead to eye problems.



I don't know if you know this. From what I understand is, current flow from the body into the hand, not opposite. All energy is stored in the center of body, and then flows from there to the rest of the body. I'm not an internal expert but that's what many student told me.





The yin meridians flow in that direction. What about the yang ones? And I think the energy is stored in the 8 extraordinary vessels, and not the "center".

Quote:


You could just use reverse breathing to stop excess of chi, but there's no need as one can not build up excess of chi unless you have been doing it for the last few years.




You could? Nowhere have I come across this fact. Can you quote a source?

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#221270 - 01/31/06 09:59 PM Re: Iron Palm Training [Re: eyrie]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
Yang, Jwing-Ming. The book called "Chinese Fast Wrestling for Free Fighting", published by YMAA. I think page 34-36, about the qigong. That's what he says.

I don't know if that's true though. Never used it for that purpose. As I said, I'm not an expert at internal chi development.

I know a good solution to this discussion. Let's all just go and ask ButterflyPalm. His hobby is Chi cultivation, so I think he knows a lot more then we do, right?

-Taison out
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

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#221271 - 02/01/06 03:31 PM Re: Iron Palm Training [Re: ShikataGaNai]
HellHoundClan Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/27/06
Posts: 8
I took Southern Praying Mantis and we had a technique where you would put a thin piece of bamboo, lay it on a table and roll and rotate your fore arms/hands along the bamboo on the table. That and of course a little DDJ/Tiger Balm b4 & after. Regards!

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#221272 - 02/09/06 11:18 PM Re: Iron Palm Training [Re: HellHoundClan]
RyuuJitsu Offline
Member

Registered: 01/22/06
Posts: 25
Loc: every where and no where
did your forearms or palms get like a sweatyish feel to it?

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#221273 - 02/17/07 06:46 AM Re: Iron Palm Training [Re: Savate]
Peter32 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 10
I have not done the years of External Iron Palm that would be required to give you a definitive answer as to whether it is truly detrimental to your health; I only have what I've observed in other (older) practitioners.

While I know that it can mess up your knuckles something good, I haven't seen anyone at the Uechi-Ryu school around here (and they do have Makiwara posts). From much of what I read, the development of deformed hands is due to incorrect practice.

A proper Makiwara starts at 4x4 at the base, then tapers to about an inch (I've heard 5/8 of an inch in some articles) at the top; that's where you hit it. It should have a good amount of give to it. A lot of the people with messed up knuckles use something thicker with less give; or even worse they use a wall-mounted Makiwara, which is more or less hitting a wall with a cushion on top.

I conferred with my Sifu before starting it, and he had no problem with it when I told him the type of Makiwara I was using.

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#221274 - 02/17/07 08:56 AM Re: Iron Palm Training [Re: Peter32]
Fisherman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/16/03
Posts: 1656
Loc: Colorado, USA
I think the key statement here is "training properly".
If you use the wrong type of equipment or do the training exercise wrong you will not have the desired effects.

I would not say that I have done extensive iron palm training, but my hands have been conditioned over the years of hitting practice I have done.
When I broke my hand and they took x-rays they were astonished at the density of my bones. They were not callused or deformed. The impact of striking heavy bags etc. over the years has caused the bones to solidify.
One of the ideas behind the practice of iron palm and iron bone training in general is that shock to the bones will cause them to gain density by having the layers of marrow inside become solid.
I think that some conditioning of the bones is a good and healthy practice. However, excess of anything can be detrimental. I do some light bouncing and shaking exercises when I do qigong and I also spend time conditioning my limbs by training on the heavy bags and with my class mates. Essentially training is going to make you stronger at what the training method was developed for.
_________________________
Chris Haynes

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