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#221066 - 01/10/06 03:40 AM Multiple attackers for patterns
BrianS Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
How many of you are taught the mulitple attackers for turns in the patterns? Such as blocking and counter then turn block and counter.
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#221067 - 01/10/06 06:32 AM Re: Multiple attackers for patterns [Re: BrianS]
nospoon_TKD Offline
Member

Registered: 01/25/05
Posts: 110
Loc: Netherlands
Hi,

My instructor teaches me those patters too and I need to know them for graduating. Personally I find patterns a little boring, I rather do some serious sparring.
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#221068 - 01/10/06 09:15 AM Re: Multiple attackers for patterns [Re: BrianS]
onb Offline
Member

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 246
Loc: Canada
From what I can tell, most of the chang hon style patterns are based on multiple attackers. Most start with a block of some form and then strike, turn, block, strike... so unless the invisable opponent is supposed to be jumping from either side to side, then I'd say that the multiple attacker is implied.

However, if I understand you correctly, you're asking if we discuss the intent of each of the patterns and what each portion is intended to do... in that case, sadly no. The pattern is there, and we do them every class for a least 10 minutes just to keep them in mind but we don't have the time to go over each specific portion. Usually though, if you are a little imaginative in your mind, you should be able to see what the attacker would be doing and what the pattern is defending/countering. At least, thats one thing that I try to think about when doing a pattern.

The pattern is less about just going through a series of motions, its training the mind too.... well, at least thats what I strive for.

Interesting though Brian, I'll be people would find patterns a lot more interesting if they had the attackers explained or even acted out by others.

onb

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#221069 - 01/10/06 09:25 AM Re: Multiple attackers for patterns [Re: BrianS]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
A lot of the Taegeuks are meant for multiple attackers but to train that way you have to do it agains imaginary opponents. Unfortunately these are not the same thing and unless you are training in a "live" type of way then it don't really amount to nothing. I would have to say for the most part no, we don't train multiple attackers.

However there have been drills that have taken this into consideration. I have been there when everybody makes a circle around an individual and are all secretly given numbers. When your number is called out you attack the person in the middle with what ever technique(s) you want. Sometimes two numbers will be called at the same time and other times one number will be called and once engaged a second or possible a third will be called. A good drill ... bumps and bruises are to be expected. The attack ends when somebody taps, gets too injured or when the Instructor feels it is getting too out of hand.

Then recently they did a drill, that I missed, where there were 8 people in the centre of the dojo. They had to be relaxed as if standing at a street corner. 8 or more other people are walking around them, in and out of them. The people in the centre know they are going to be attacked ... obviously ... but they don't know when. The Instructor will signal when to attack ... but the people in the centre cannot be tensed or ready for this. Some people will be multiple attacked and others won't be attacked at all. It is all random. I wish I could have been there for that one.
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#221070 - 01/10/06 09:07 PM Re: Multiple attackers for patterns [Re: BrianS]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Hello,

We do not practice the pattern/forms as traditional style handbook. We practice them almost as if empty ritual. A tradition of the martial arts, but for the most part at our school we really do not place a lot of value on them.

Although the TKD forms are nice bevause they work both left and right sides, they are not really good for self defense or fighting/sparring. Because they lack realness. I beieve there are better ways to train for such situations. Step sparring is one way. Because you perform this with a real person. You may also combine the different one steps with multiple attackers, have one person stand in the center of a circle with four othe students surrounding him. one student at a time attack the student in the middle, let him defend himself with a one step technqiue, then have another student from a different angle attack untill all four students have attacked from all four angles. This helps the student defending themselves realise that there are alternatives to the one steps, because in a multiple attacker situation you cannot just focus on one attacker, therefore you may not be able to complete the entire one step-sparring technique. The student defending themselves will come to realize they must make adjustments to the one step-technique in order to deal with more than one attacker.

Many kenpo schools use this form of practice for multiple attackers. And many schools have come to realize that for multiple attackers it is best to strike first, rather than wait to be attacked the countered with a block.

The way I was taught for multiple attacker situations was to "strike first, and ask questions later". Because in ths case you are at a disadvantage and your senses should alert yo if you are in danger.

"It is better to be judge by 12 (jury) than to be carried by 6 (bearers). If you have never heard this expression, figure it out. -TeK
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#221071 - 01/10/06 10:11 PM Multiple attackers for patterns [Re: BrianS]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello BrianS:

I am not a practitioner of the arts of our ~Airborne Korean Brethren~ (generic). However, the question of multiple attackers is surely not unique to the Korean arts. The question becomes how many multiple folks are any of us speaking of? Are we talking 2 people, or 10... simultainously, effectively assailing us?!

To be effective as a group, requires a strong bond, and a decent amount of group interaction and practice as that assaultive group. If we were retroactively effective-efficent as a "mob" training would be unnecessary, right?

How many people does one defend against in such multiples, as a function of kata, hyung, poomose.. whatever reference or title one's art utilizes to describe its patterns, and habit building exercises???

J

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#221072 - 01/11/06 12:09 AM Re: Multiple attackers for patterns [Re: onb]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Thanks for the responses guuys. I was asking more or less how you fit your patterns into self defense,most of you answered that for me.
I've heard explanations for kata that move more than one direction as defense against several attackers. To me this is simply not realistic and is just something someone made up because they do not know the true meanings of the moves(bunkai in karate) or breakdown of each move in the patterns.

As Tek9 said he focuses more on real resistance training which would be wise if your breakdown of the patterns was faulty in the first place.

Are you really going to beat 4 or 5 attackers as done in the patterns? No.

I look at each move as a self defense move in itself,not all fitting together into a choreographed fight scene.
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#221073 - 01/11/06 12:22 AM Re: Multiple attackers for patterns [Re: BrianS]
ericsams Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/10/06
Posts: 6
our forms imply multiple attackers, we will from time to time go thru our form with attakers. That helps with learning and applying what we know.

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#221074 - 01/11/06 03:12 AM Re: Multiple attackers for patterns [Re: BrianS]
sjon Offline
Smiter of the smited

Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 186
Loc: Spain
Wise response, Brian.

People who have read my other posts will be aware that I believe the patterns to be summaries of SD methods which are totally different to the explanations taught now. I think these methods come to us mainly from Okinawan Karate (Kenpo, Toudi) with some direct Chinese and native Korean influence.
I do not know if the composers of the TKD patterns were aware of these contents or not, although aspects of my research indicate that they may well have been, even if they chose not to teach them to the general public (including future Korean masters). Whichever way, these contents were preserved and in many cases added to in the TKD patterns.
I think most students and instructors now are unaware of these boonhae. I also think there are a lot of people who refuse to contemplate these more realistic interpretations of the patterns, which may or may not have been the original meanings, but either way are certainly far more effective than the conventional interpretations. To be honest, I find it rather trying when people dismiss the possibility of an older alternative SD content without actually examining or attempting to refute in a reasoned fashion the arguments that I and others put forward.

Yes, other types of real resistence training are necessary to handle group situations. In fact, real resistence training is always necessary in order to put your boonhae into practice ... or to look for an alternative to them if, as Brian so nicely puts it, your breakdown of the patterns is faulty in the first place.

Anyway, now I've got that off my chest ...

I don't believe the patterns were ever designed to deal with multiple attackers. Attackers coming from behind or the sides maybe, but not in groups. Maybe there are some techniques for dealing with two (like if one is trying to hold you so the other can hit you).
Bear in mind that anybody familiar with violence will advocate above all else the Monty Python method for dealing with multiple attackers ("Run away! Run away!"). I find it difficult to believe that the old masters would compose long patterns or sets of patterns to attempt to deal with various opponents by walking round in geometrical patterns and expecting to find the next opponent conveniently waiting there, content to let you finish off his friend before moving on you himself.

No, I think the pattern format is (a) a convenient way of arranging a series of separate sequences into an easy-to-learn whole, and (b) something which takes advantage of the turns themselves as an integral part of the techniques (I think I may have written about this in the "Takedowns" thread).

Thanks for you time.

sjon
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#221075 - 01/11/06 03:42 AM Re: Multiple attackers for patterns [Re: sjon]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Hi sjon,
Seems like you go to a very good TKD school! Our beliefs are very much the same. Thanks for the response.
-Brian
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#221076 - 01/11/06 04:15 AM Re: Multiple attackers for patterns [Re: BrianS]
sjon Offline
Smiter of the smited

Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 186
Loc: Spain
ˇAy, ojalá! If only!

Unfortunately, I have never come across any of this kind of pattern-based approach in any TKD school I have trained at over the years. Everything I'm saying is based on my own empirical research and practice (and that of others).
I currently train these methods with a very small group of like-minded BB's, independently of my regular TKD training. In the classes I teach myself, I slip elements of it in without trying to explain the whole picture (I just call it SD), mainly because the school is not mine, and it is therefore not my place to make the students question the owner's more conventional teaching.

So you say your school does go for this kind of thing?
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#221077 - 01/11/06 04:48 AM Re: Multiple attackers for patterns [Re: BrianS]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
There's a saying in a number of arts I've encountered that say to treat the one as many and the many as one. What this means, from an SD perspective, is that one atatcker should be treated as if there are multiple attackers. And multiple
attackers should be treated either individually or as a single unit.

In a multi-attacker situation, there is simply no time to do any fancy schmancy moves. In an SD situation against multiple attackers, you need your stuff to work immediately. Anything more than 1-2 techs per attacker is wasted time and effort, and provides the other attackers ample time to close the gap.

In the arts I encountered, the tried and tested method is to continuously enter into the attackers' space, using one or 2 attackers as a shield against the others, or to circle the group from the outside (treating the many as one).

So, whilst it is highly conceivable for a kata with a block, counter, turn/pivot, block, counter sequence to imply a multi-attack situation, the likelihood of application in RT is highly unlikely, if not impractical.

The more likely explanation is that the turn or pivot is there for strategic positioning purposes (tai-sabaki), i.e. to place the current attacker between you and the next attacker, like a shield, or to come off the line of attack and meeting the intended force at an angle.

The more logical explanation, therefore, for the subsequent sequence is for a lock/throw/takedown on the current attacker, which then places them between you and the next attacker.

So, whilst on the surface, a turn and pivot in kata could imply multiple attackers, the more probable scenario is that it serves to work the angular vector forces in a one-on-one situation, which places you in a position of strategic advantage to apply a follow up.

In any case, it doesn't make sense to turn/pivot such that your back is facing another attacker so that you are blindsided, or present a target for a king-hit.

And for those who believe that there is no grappling in TKD, have a look at Choi Hong-Hi's 1965 work on the subject - if you can still get your hands on a copy.

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#221078 - 01/11/06 06:37 AM Re: Multiple attackers for patterns [Re: sjon]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

So you say your school does go for this kind of thing?




Absolutely! This is the way we teach kata,with real self defense applications that can be put to the test. Too bad about your school. Happy training!
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The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#221079 - 01/11/06 10:08 AM Re: Multiple attackers for patterns [Re: BrianS]
sjon Offline
Smiter of the smited

Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 186
Loc: Spain
Too bad about my school and all TKD schools I have knowledge of.

I've just noticed you're a Goju man. That explains it, then.
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#221080 - 01/11/06 03:59 PM Re: Multiple attackers for patterns [Re: BrianS]
Subedei Offline
Member

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 479
I think these kinds of patterns are less "there are five opponents surrounding you, this is how to defend yourself" and more "this is how to keep enemies on either side at bay, this is how to attack someone to your side quickly" etc.

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#221081 - 01/12/06 11:35 AM Re: Multiple attackers for patterns [Re: Subedei]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
While a pattern may be thought of as a combat scenario against multiple attackers, and in some situations it may have some benefit to think of it this way it really does not hold up long to logical scrutiny. The most obvious failing is that patterns are often designed to practice each side equaly and it is unlikely a combat situation will follow such symetry. It may be more useful to concentrate on how patterns teach distance and direction. Unlike sparring where the opponent is in front of you, an attacker may approach from any angle. Patterns help you learn how to adjust to attacks from all angles and various distances as well as some follow up counterattacks. Then of course you have all those hidden applications which only some people can figure out. In reality any practical application of the motion is fine . The pattern teaches you how to move with pratical speed, efficiency and power in a variety of ways. How you can use thta which the pattern helps you develop is limited only by your imagination and some sense of reason.

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#221082 - 01/12/06 11:52 AM Re: Multiple attackers for patterns [Re: EarlWeiss]
onb Offline
Member

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 246
Loc: Canada
EarlWeiss,

Ok, I'll bite. Can you give an example of a "hidden application" that the rest of us can see what you are pointing to?

onb

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#221083 - 01/12/06 03:45 PM Re: Multiple attackers for patterns [Re: onb]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
Is it hidden or is it just another use? You decide for this or any example. My "Hidden" comment was with tongue firmly in cheek. (hence my use of the emotican;) ) I do not know what system you use so hopefuly the terminolgy will be clear.

Low outer forearm block. Typical application is someone is trying to do a low front snap kick targeting your lower abdomen. Hidden application. Person standing in front of you grabs your right wrist with their left hand . Same chamber as the low outer forearm block, but now you use that forearm to strike hard on the radial nerve area of their left arm. This sets up a reaction where they tend to turn their head to their right setting them up for the next technique.

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#221084 - 01/12/06 03:52 PM Re: Multiple attackers for patterns [Re: EarlWeiss]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
I tend to call these so called "Hidden Applications" alternate applications. For examples you can see Bubishi, Bible of Karate which explores the Chinese forrunners of Karate, , some of Dilman's Books, and Shotokan Secrets.

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#221085 - 01/12/06 06:59 PM Re: Multiple attackers for patterns [Re: EarlWeiss]
onb Offline
Member

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 246
Loc: Canada
Ahhh, now I see what you mean. Now I have to go searching through all my patterns to see what hidden goodies I can find.

Thanks for the references too. I'll try to find 'em and take a look.

onb

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#221086 - 01/13/06 02:41 AM Re: Multiple attackers for patterns [Re: onb]
sjon Offline
Smiter of the smited

Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 186
Loc: Spain
This is probably the moment to start a new thread, but anyway ...

onb, I haven't got time right now to give you any descriptions of "hidden" (alternative) applications, but if you look at some of my other posts you'll find at least three or four applications of whole pattern sequences described in some detail.

sjon
_________________________
www.combat-tkd.com

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#221087 - 01/13/06 09:49 AM Re: Multiple attackers for patterns [Re: sjon]
Paulol Offline
Member

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 112
it's great to see this type of thinking in TKD

i trained in the Chang Hon forms up to 4th dan and have always looked at alternative applications for movements. mainly because some of the movements seemed to be not make much sense. things like W-shaped block and U-shaped block!

the low-block one posted above is fine and as mentioned can be used to create a follow up alternative to any move that comes next in a context of the pattern your are looking at.

i have joined Prof.Rick Clarks Ao Denkou Kai who is an 7th dan in Chung Do Kwan TKD and 8th dan in Ryu Kyu Kempo (among others).

look at other styles of MA's and you will see things that remind you of movements in your own style, and you will find that you will get some nice applications while still staying true to your style!!

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