FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 34 Guests and 3 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
old1, Leonar, ManLar, Vimido, raya
22925 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
futsaowingchun 3
Ronin1966 3
GojuRyuboy13 2
ergees 1
swordy 1
October
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4
5 6 7 8 9 10 11
12 13 14 15 16 17 18
19 20 21 22 23 24 25
26 27 28 29 30 31
New Topics
The Classic Pak Sao drill
by futsaowingchun
10/20/14 10:32 AM
wing chun kicks and knees
by futsaowingchun
10/09/14 12:55 AM
2014 European Championships Juniors: the Gallery
by ergees
10/05/14 10:56 AM
Tan,Bong,Fuk & Wu Sao
by futsaowingchun
09/30/14 12:10 AM
Living a full life violence free...
by GojuRyuboy13
09/25/14 08:50 AM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Bartfast
08/05/14 04:18 PM
The Karate punch
by Matakiant
10/30/13 07:41 AM
Leo's Judo Journal
by Leo_E_49
01/24/12 02:58 AM
** Introduce Yourself! **
by
05/13/07 08:02 AM
Recent Posts
Living a full life violence free...
by GojuRyuboy13
10/22/14 07:20 AM
The Classic Pak Sao drill
by futsaowingchun
10/20/14 10:32 AM
Leo's Judo Journal
by swordy
10/11/14 09:21 AM
The Karate punch
by Ronin1966
10/09/14 03:16 PM
wing chun kicks and knees
by futsaowingchun
10/09/14 12:55 AM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Ronin1966
10/08/14 09:22 PM
2014 European Championships Juniors: the Gallery
by ergees
10/05/14 10:56 AM
** Introduce Yourself! **
by AndyLA
10/04/14 10:20 AM
Tan,Bong,Fuk & Wu Sao
by futsaowingchun
09/30/14 12:10 AM
Forum Stats
22925 Members
36 Forums
35582 Topics
432510 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 2 of 3 < 1 2 3 >
Topic Options
#221076 - 01/11/06 04:15 AM Re: Multiple attackers for patterns [Re: BrianS]
sjon Offline
Smiter of the smited

Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 186
Loc: Spain
ˇAy, ojalá! If only!

Unfortunately, I have never come across any of this kind of pattern-based approach in any TKD school I have trained at over the years. Everything I'm saying is based on my own empirical research and practice (and that of others).
I currently train these methods with a very small group of like-minded BB's, independently of my regular TKD training. In the classes I teach myself, I slip elements of it in without trying to explain the whole picture (I just call it SD), mainly because the school is not mine, and it is therefore not my place to make the students question the owner's more conventional teaching.

So you say your school does go for this kind of thing?
_________________________
www.combat-tkd.com

Top
#221077 - 01/11/06 04:48 AM Re: Multiple attackers for patterns [Re: BrianS]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
There's a saying in a number of arts I've encountered that say to treat the one as many and the many as one. What this means, from an SD perspective, is that one atatcker should be treated as if there are multiple attackers. And multiple
attackers should be treated either individually or as a single unit.

In a multi-attacker situation, there is simply no time to do any fancy schmancy moves. In an SD situation against multiple attackers, you need your stuff to work immediately. Anything more than 1-2 techs per attacker is wasted time and effort, and provides the other attackers ample time to close the gap.

In the arts I encountered, the tried and tested method is to continuously enter into the attackers' space, using one or 2 attackers as a shield against the others, or to circle the group from the outside (treating the many as one).

So, whilst it is highly conceivable for a kata with a block, counter, turn/pivot, block, counter sequence to imply a multi-attack situation, the likelihood of application in RT is highly unlikely, if not impractical.

The more likely explanation is that the turn or pivot is there for strategic positioning purposes (tai-sabaki), i.e. to place the current attacker between you and the next attacker, like a shield, or to come off the line of attack and meeting the intended force at an angle.

The more logical explanation, therefore, for the subsequent sequence is for a lock/throw/takedown on the current attacker, which then places them between you and the next attacker.

So, whilst on the surface, a turn and pivot in kata could imply multiple attackers, the more probable scenario is that it serves to work the angular vector forces in a one-on-one situation, which places you in a position of strategic advantage to apply a follow up.

In any case, it doesn't make sense to turn/pivot such that your back is facing another attacker so that you are blindsided, or present a target for a king-hit.

And for those who believe that there is no grappling in TKD, have a look at Choi Hong-Hi's 1965 work on the subject - if you can still get your hands on a copy.

Top
#221078 - 01/11/06 06:37 AM Re: Multiple attackers for patterns [Re: sjon]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

So you say your school does go for this kind of thing?




Absolutely! This is the way we teach kata,with real self defense applications that can be put to the test. Too bad about your school. Happy training!
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




Top
#221079 - 01/11/06 10:08 AM Re: Multiple attackers for patterns [Re: BrianS]
sjon Offline
Smiter of the smited

Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 186
Loc: Spain
Too bad about my school and all TKD schools I have knowledge of.

I've just noticed you're a Goju man. That explains it, then.
_________________________
www.combat-tkd.com

Top
#221080 - 01/11/06 03:59 PM Re: Multiple attackers for patterns [Re: BrianS]
Subedei Offline
Member

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 479
I think these kinds of patterns are less "there are five opponents surrounding you, this is how to defend yourself" and more "this is how to keep enemies on either side at bay, this is how to attack someone to your side quickly" etc.

Top
#221081 - 01/12/06 11:35 AM Re: Multiple attackers for patterns [Re: Subedei]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
While a pattern may be thought of as a combat scenario against multiple attackers, and in some situations it may have some benefit to think of it this way it really does not hold up long to logical scrutiny. The most obvious failing is that patterns are often designed to practice each side equaly and it is unlikely a combat situation will follow such symetry. It may be more useful to concentrate on how patterns teach distance and direction. Unlike sparring where the opponent is in front of you, an attacker may approach from any angle. Patterns help you learn how to adjust to attacks from all angles and various distances as well as some follow up counterattacks. Then of course you have all those hidden applications which only some people can figure out. In reality any practical application of the motion is fine . The pattern teaches you how to move with pratical speed, efficiency and power in a variety of ways. How you can use thta which the pattern helps you develop is limited only by your imagination and some sense of reason.

Top
#221082 - 01/12/06 11:52 AM Re: Multiple attackers for patterns [Re: EarlWeiss]
onb Offline
Member

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 246
Loc: Canada
EarlWeiss,

Ok, I'll bite. Can you give an example of a "hidden application" that the rest of us can see what you are pointing to?

onb

Top
#221083 - 01/12/06 03:45 PM Re: Multiple attackers for patterns [Re: onb]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
Is it hidden or is it just another use? You decide for this or any example. My "Hidden" comment was with tongue firmly in cheek. (hence my use of the emotican;) ) I do not know what system you use so hopefuly the terminolgy will be clear.

Low outer forearm block. Typical application is someone is trying to do a low front snap kick targeting your lower abdomen. Hidden application. Person standing in front of you grabs your right wrist with their left hand . Same chamber as the low outer forearm block, but now you use that forearm to strike hard on the radial nerve area of their left arm. This sets up a reaction where they tend to turn their head to their right setting them up for the next technique.

Top
#221084 - 01/12/06 03:52 PM Re: Multiple attackers for patterns [Re: EarlWeiss]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
I tend to call these so called "Hidden Applications" alternate applications. For examples you can see Bubishi, Bible of Karate which explores the Chinese forrunners of Karate, , some of Dilman's Books, and Shotokan Secrets.

Top
#221085 - 01/12/06 06:59 PM Re: Multiple attackers for patterns [Re: EarlWeiss]
onb Offline
Member

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 246
Loc: Canada
Ahhh, now I see what you mean. Now I have to go searching through all my patterns to see what hidden goodies I can find.

Thanks for the references too. I'll try to find 'em and take a look.

onb

Top
Page 2 of 3 < 1 2 3 >






Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Fight Videos
Night club fight footage and street fights captured with the world's first bouncer spy cam

How to Matrix!
Learn ten times faster with new training method. Learn entire arts for as little as $10 per disk.

Self Defense
Stun guns, pepper spray, Mace and self defense products. Alarms for personal and home use.

TASER MC26C
Stop An Urban Gorilla: Get 2 FREE TASER M26C Replacement Air Cartridges With Each New TASER M26C!

 

Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga