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#221076 - 01/11/06 04:15 AM Re: Multiple attackers for patterns [Re: BrianS]
sjon Offline
Smiter of the smited

Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 186
Loc: Spain
ˇAy, ojalá! If only!

Unfortunately, I have never come across any of this kind of pattern-based approach in any TKD school I have trained at over the years. Everything I'm saying is based on my own empirical research and practice (and that of others).
I currently train these methods with a very small group of like-minded BB's, independently of my regular TKD training. In the classes I teach myself, I slip elements of it in without trying to explain the whole picture (I just call it SD), mainly because the school is not mine, and it is therefore not my place to make the students question the owner's more conventional teaching.

So you say your school does go for this kind of thing?
_________________________
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#221077 - 01/11/06 04:48 AM Re: Multiple attackers for patterns [Re: BrianS]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
There's a saying in a number of arts I've encountered that say to treat the one as many and the many as one. What this means, from an SD perspective, is that one atatcker should be treated as if there are multiple attackers. And multiple
attackers should be treated either individually or as a single unit.

In a multi-attacker situation, there is simply no time to do any fancy schmancy moves. In an SD situation against multiple attackers, you need your stuff to work immediately. Anything more than 1-2 techs per attacker is wasted time and effort, and provides the other attackers ample time to close the gap.

In the arts I encountered, the tried and tested method is to continuously enter into the attackers' space, using one or 2 attackers as a shield against the others, or to circle the group from the outside (treating the many as one).

So, whilst it is highly conceivable for a kata with a block, counter, turn/pivot, block, counter sequence to imply a multi-attack situation, the likelihood of application in RT is highly unlikely, if not impractical.

The more likely explanation is that the turn or pivot is there for strategic positioning purposes (tai-sabaki), i.e. to place the current attacker between you and the next attacker, like a shield, or to come off the line of attack and meeting the intended force at an angle.

The more logical explanation, therefore, for the subsequent sequence is for a lock/throw/takedown on the current attacker, which then places them between you and the next attacker.

So, whilst on the surface, a turn and pivot in kata could imply multiple attackers, the more probable scenario is that it serves to work the angular vector forces in a one-on-one situation, which places you in a position of strategic advantage to apply a follow up.

In any case, it doesn't make sense to turn/pivot such that your back is facing another attacker so that you are blindsided, or present a target for a king-hit.

And for those who believe that there is no grappling in TKD, have a look at Choi Hong-Hi's 1965 work on the subject - if you can still get your hands on a copy.

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#221078 - 01/11/06 06:37 AM Re: Multiple attackers for patterns [Re: sjon]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

So you say your school does go for this kind of thing?




Absolutely! This is the way we teach kata,with real self defense applications that can be put to the test. Too bad about your school. Happy training!
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The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#221079 - 01/11/06 10:08 AM Re: Multiple attackers for patterns [Re: BrianS]
sjon Offline
Smiter of the smited

Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 186
Loc: Spain
Too bad about my school and all TKD schools I have knowledge of.

I've just noticed you're a Goju man. That explains it, then.
_________________________
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#221080 - 01/11/06 03:59 PM Re: Multiple attackers for patterns [Re: BrianS]
Subedei Offline
Member

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 479
I think these kinds of patterns are less "there are five opponents surrounding you, this is how to defend yourself" and more "this is how to keep enemies on either side at bay, this is how to attack someone to your side quickly" etc.

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#221081 - 01/12/06 11:35 AM Re: Multiple attackers for patterns [Re: Subedei]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
While a pattern may be thought of as a combat scenario against multiple attackers, and in some situations it may have some benefit to think of it this way it really does not hold up long to logical scrutiny. The most obvious failing is that patterns are often designed to practice each side equaly and it is unlikely a combat situation will follow such symetry. It may be more useful to concentrate on how patterns teach distance and direction. Unlike sparring where the opponent is in front of you, an attacker may approach from any angle. Patterns help you learn how to adjust to attacks from all angles and various distances as well as some follow up counterattacks. Then of course you have all those hidden applications which only some people can figure out. In reality any practical application of the motion is fine . The pattern teaches you how to move with pratical speed, efficiency and power in a variety of ways. How you can use thta which the pattern helps you develop is limited only by your imagination and some sense of reason.

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#221082 - 01/12/06 11:52 AM Re: Multiple attackers for patterns [Re: EarlWeiss]
onb Offline
Member

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 246
Loc: Canada
EarlWeiss,

Ok, I'll bite. Can you give an example of a "hidden application" that the rest of us can see what you are pointing to?

onb

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#221083 - 01/12/06 03:45 PM Re: Multiple attackers for patterns [Re: onb]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
Is it hidden or is it just another use? You decide for this or any example. My "Hidden" comment was with tongue firmly in cheek. (hence my use of the emotican;) ) I do not know what system you use so hopefuly the terminolgy will be clear.

Low outer forearm block. Typical application is someone is trying to do a low front snap kick targeting your lower abdomen. Hidden application. Person standing in front of you grabs your right wrist with their left hand . Same chamber as the low outer forearm block, but now you use that forearm to strike hard on the radial nerve area of their left arm. This sets up a reaction where they tend to turn their head to their right setting them up for the next technique.

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#221084 - 01/12/06 03:52 PM Re: Multiple attackers for patterns [Re: EarlWeiss]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
I tend to call these so called "Hidden Applications" alternate applications. For examples you can see Bubishi, Bible of Karate which explores the Chinese forrunners of Karate, , some of Dilman's Books, and Shotokan Secrets.

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#221085 - 01/12/06 06:59 PM Re: Multiple attackers for patterns [Re: EarlWeiss]
onb Offline
Member

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 246
Loc: Canada
Ahhh, now I see what you mean. Now I have to go searching through all my patterns to see what hidden goodies I can find.

Thanks for the references too. I'll try to find 'em and take a look.

onb

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