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#221066 - 01/10/06 03:40 AM Multiple attackers for patterns
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
How many of you are taught the mulitple attackers for turns in the patterns? Such as blocking and counter then turn block and counter.
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#221067 - 01/10/06 06:32 AM Re: Multiple attackers for patterns [Re: BrianS]
nospoon_TKD Offline
Member

Registered: 01/25/05
Posts: 110
Loc: Netherlands
Hi,

My instructor teaches me those patters too and I need to know them for graduating. Personally I find patterns a little boring, I rather do some serious sparring.
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#221068 - 01/10/06 09:15 AM Re: Multiple attackers for patterns [Re: BrianS]
onb Offline
Member

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 246
Loc: Canada
From what I can tell, most of the chang hon style patterns are based on multiple attackers. Most start with a block of some form and then strike, turn, block, strike... so unless the invisable opponent is supposed to be jumping from either side to side, then I'd say that the multiple attacker is implied.

However, if I understand you correctly, you're asking if we discuss the intent of each of the patterns and what each portion is intended to do... in that case, sadly no. The pattern is there, and we do them every class for a least 10 minutes just to keep them in mind but we don't have the time to go over each specific portion. Usually though, if you are a little imaginative in your mind, you should be able to see what the attacker would be doing and what the pattern is defending/countering. At least, thats one thing that I try to think about when doing a pattern.

The pattern is less about just going through a series of motions, its training the mind too.... well, at least thats what I strive for.

Interesting though Brian, I'll be people would find patterns a lot more interesting if they had the attackers explained or even acted out by others.

onb

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#221069 - 01/10/06 09:25 AM Re: Multiple attackers for patterns [Re: BrianS]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
A lot of the Taegeuks are meant for multiple attackers but to train that way you have to do it agains imaginary opponents. Unfortunately these are not the same thing and unless you are training in a "live" type of way then it don't really amount to nothing. I would have to say for the most part no, we don't train multiple attackers.

However there have been drills that have taken this into consideration. I have been there when everybody makes a circle around an individual and are all secretly given numbers. When your number is called out you attack the person in the middle with what ever technique(s) you want. Sometimes two numbers will be called at the same time and other times one number will be called and once engaged a second or possible a third will be called. A good drill ... bumps and bruises are to be expected. The attack ends when somebody taps, gets too injured or when the Instructor feels it is getting too out of hand.

Then recently they did a drill, that I missed, where there were 8 people in the centre of the dojo. They had to be relaxed as if standing at a street corner. 8 or more other people are walking around them, in and out of them. The people in the centre know they are going to be attacked ... obviously ... but they don't know when. The Instructor will signal when to attack ... but the people in the centre cannot be tensed or ready for this. Some people will be multiple attacked and others won't be attacked at all. It is all random. I wish I could have been there for that one.
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#221070 - 01/10/06 09:07 PM Re: Multiple attackers for patterns [Re: BrianS]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Hello,

We do not practice the pattern/forms as traditional style handbook. We practice them almost as if empty ritual. A tradition of the martial arts, but for the most part at our school we really do not place a lot of value on them.

Although the TKD forms are nice bevause they work both left and right sides, they are not really good for self defense or fighting/sparring. Because they lack realness. I beieve there are better ways to train for such situations. Step sparring is one way. Because you perform this with a real person. You may also combine the different one steps with multiple attackers, have one person stand in the center of a circle with four othe students surrounding him. one student at a time attack the student in the middle, let him defend himself with a one step technqiue, then have another student from a different angle attack untill all four students have attacked from all four angles. This helps the student defending themselves realise that there are alternatives to the one steps, because in a multiple attacker situation you cannot just focus on one attacker, therefore you may not be able to complete the entire one step-sparring technique. The student defending themselves will come to realize they must make adjustments to the one step-technique in order to deal with more than one attacker.

Many kenpo schools use this form of practice for multiple attackers. And many schools have come to realize that for multiple attackers it is best to strike first, rather than wait to be attacked the countered with a block.

The way I was taught for multiple attacker situations was to "strike first, and ask questions later". Because in ths case you are at a disadvantage and your senses should alert yo if you are in danger.

"It is better to be judge by 12 (jury) than to be carried by 6 (bearers). If you have never heard this expression, figure it out. -TeK
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#221071 - 01/10/06 10:11 PM Multiple attackers for patterns [Re: BrianS]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello BrianS:

I am not a practitioner of the arts of our ~Airborne Korean Brethren~ (generic). However, the question of multiple attackers is surely not unique to the Korean arts. The question becomes how many multiple folks are any of us speaking of? Are we talking 2 people, or 10... simultainously, effectively assailing us?!

To be effective as a group, requires a strong bond, and a decent amount of group interaction and practice as that assaultive group. If we were retroactively effective-efficent as a "mob" training would be unnecessary, right?

How many people does one defend against in such multiples, as a function of kata, hyung, poomose.. whatever reference or title one's art utilizes to describe its patterns, and habit building exercises???

J

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#221072 - 01/11/06 12:09 AM Re: Multiple attackers for patterns [Re: onb]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Thanks for the responses guuys. I was asking more or less how you fit your patterns into self defense,most of you answered that for me.
I've heard explanations for kata that move more than one direction as defense against several attackers. To me this is simply not realistic and is just something someone made up because they do not know the true meanings of the moves(bunkai in karate) or breakdown of each move in the patterns.

As Tek9 said he focuses more on real resistance training which would be wise if your breakdown of the patterns was faulty in the first place.

Are you really going to beat 4 or 5 attackers as done in the patterns? No.

I look at each move as a self defense move in itself,not all fitting together into a choreographed fight scene.
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#221073 - 01/11/06 12:22 AM Re: Multiple attackers for patterns [Re: BrianS]
ericsams Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/10/06
Posts: 6
our forms imply multiple attackers, we will from time to time go thru our form with attakers. That helps with learning and applying what we know.

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#221074 - 01/11/06 03:12 AM Re: Multiple attackers for patterns [Re: BrianS]
sjon Offline
Smiter of the smited

Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 186
Loc: Spain
Wise response, Brian.

People who have read my other posts will be aware that I believe the patterns to be summaries of SD methods which are totally different to the explanations taught now. I think these methods come to us mainly from Okinawan Karate (Kenpo, Toudi) with some direct Chinese and native Korean influence.
I do not know if the composers of the TKD patterns were aware of these contents or not, although aspects of my research indicate that they may well have been, even if they chose not to teach them to the general public (including future Korean masters). Whichever way, these contents were preserved and in many cases added to in the TKD patterns.
I think most students and instructors now are unaware of these boonhae. I also think there are a lot of people who refuse to contemplate these more realistic interpretations of the patterns, which may or may not have been the original meanings, but either way are certainly far more effective than the conventional interpretations. To be honest, I find it rather trying when people dismiss the possibility of an older alternative SD content without actually examining or attempting to refute in a reasoned fashion the arguments that I and others put forward.

Yes, other types of real resistence training are necessary to handle group situations. In fact, real resistence training is always necessary in order to put your boonhae into practice ... or to look for an alternative to them if, as Brian so nicely puts it, your breakdown of the patterns is faulty in the first place.

Anyway, now I've got that off my chest ...

I don't believe the patterns were ever designed to deal with multiple attackers. Attackers coming from behind or the sides maybe, but not in groups. Maybe there are some techniques for dealing with two (like if one is trying to hold you so the other can hit you).
Bear in mind that anybody familiar with violence will advocate above all else the Monty Python method for dealing with multiple attackers ("Run away! Run away!"). I find it difficult to believe that the old masters would compose long patterns or sets of patterns to attempt to deal with various opponents by walking round in geometrical patterns and expecting to find the next opponent conveniently waiting there, content to let you finish off his friend before moving on you himself.

No, I think the pattern format is (a) a convenient way of arranging a series of separate sequences into an easy-to-learn whole, and (b) something which takes advantage of the turns themselves as an integral part of the techniques (I think I may have written about this in the "Takedowns" thread).

Thanks for you time.

sjon
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#221075 - 01/11/06 03:42 AM Re: Multiple attackers for patterns [Re: sjon]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Hi sjon,
Seems like you go to a very good TKD school! Our beliefs are very much the same. Thanks for the response.
-Brian
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