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#220472 - 01/07/06 08:18 PM Martial Art vs. Martial Sport
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
TKD forum is a perfect place to post this question because it began as a martial art then evolved into a martial sport. Can someone tell me the difference between what is a martial art and what is a martial sport?
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#220473 - 01/07/06 08:20 PM Re: Martial Art vs. Martial Sport [Re: TeK9]
TeK9 Offline
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Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
The way I see it, martial sport can be seen as a form of practice for martial art. A good way of testing and experimenting certain skills.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#220474 - 01/07/06 08:49 PM Re: Martial Art vs. Martial Sport [Re: TeK9]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
I think one is self defense and the other is for gathering trophies.

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#220475 - 01/07/06 08:52 PM Re: Martial Art vs. Martial Sport [Re: TeK9]
gojuwarrior1 Offline
tougher than you

Registered: 12/24/02
Posts: 1178
Loc: East Coast, USA
Martial sport is something that you participate in as a hobbie. Martial art is daily living!
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I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith. 2 Tim. 4:7

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#220476 - 01/07/06 09:43 PM Re: Martial Art vs. Martial Sport [Re: TeK9]
SaBumNim Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/05
Posts: 47
To me boxing is a martial sport. When I was in my teens I was a Golden Gloves boxer. I never learned “Tenants of Boxing” nor did start every workout by reciting the “Boxers Student Oath”. To me it was a sport. This is not to say however that there are not boxing gyms where boxing is treated as an art. I believe that this is a very personal thing. To me Tae Kwon Do is an art. To some of my peers it is a sport…and that is fine with me.

Over the last 25 years I have studied and taught Tae Kwon Do. I have adapted certain techniques for my personal interpretation, and passed these interpretations on to my students. To me this means that I have put part of myself into Tae Kwon Do, and that is most certainly my definition of an art.

SaBum Nim

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#220477 - 01/08/06 03:14 AM Re: Martial Art vs. Martial Sport [Re: gojuwarrior1]
TeK9 Offline
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Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Please elaborate more. Need more information. HOw is a Martial sport not a daily living as compaired to martial arts?
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#220478 - 01/08/06 03:29 AM Re: Martial Art vs. Martial Sport [Re: gojuwarrior1]
Daniele Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/06/06
Posts: 15
Quote:

Martial sport is something that you participate in as a hobbie. Martial art is daily living!




I thought Taekwondo is a martial art. Only these guys who do Olympic sparring they do martial sports.
But they all have to start with Tae Kwon Do as a martial art, isn´t it?

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#220479 - 01/08/06 03:40 AM Re: Martial Art vs. Martial Sport [Re: Daniele]
TeK9 Offline
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Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Actually that is where some people differ in opinion. For me Traditional TKD kicking techniques are different from Modern TKD kicking techniques which are used in olympic style sparring.

But both hand techniques from "traditional"and "modern" are identical.

Please add more to your post. Now that I've tried to clarify this up.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#220480 - 01/08/06 03:45 AM Re: Martial Art vs. Martial Sport [Re: SaBumNim]
TeK9 Offline
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Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
I understood what you posted. The lines begin to get blurry dont they?

I think this question between martial art and martial sport is going to need some extra terms added to it such as "budo" and "bujutsu" For a simple description of these they can be found on google.

I've been thinking about the debate between M-arts and M-sports, to me it's beggining to sound ust like politics between the old and the new.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#220481 - 01/08/06 04:00 AM Re: Martial Art vs. Martial Sport [Re: TeK9]
Dereck Offline
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Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Taekwondo is both a martial art and a martial sport. Forms, self defense and all of that stuff is martial arts. Competing in the olympics or the sake of sparring only is martial sports. One is traditional and one is sport. Some schools will train just traditional, some schools will train just sport and some schools will train both. This includes ITF, WTF and any others I missed.

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#220482 - 01/08/06 05:45 AM Re: Martial Art vs. Martial Sport [Re: TeK9]
Supremor Offline
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Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
Quote:

I've been thinking about the debate between M-arts and M-sports, to me it's beggining to sound ust like politics between the old and the new.




I think your description of "old" and "new" arts, is pejorative. I would rather say that Martial Sports are centred around a different goal to Martial arts. MS focus on point scoring in a controlled environment, MAs focus on defending oneself in an unpredictable environment.

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#220483 - 01/08/06 07:49 AM Re: Martial Art vs. Martial Sport [Re: Supremor]
TeK9 Offline
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Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Scoring a point could be seen as scoring a punch or kick in self defense or in fighting. Free sparring is the next best thing to actual combat.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#220484 - 01/08/06 09:52 AM Re: Martial Art vs. Martial Sport [Re: TeK9]
Supremor Offline
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Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
But the boundary conditions never change. You will always start off at fighting distance from each other, and neither of you will have a weapon, and the sparring ring will always be a set size.

In an SD situation, all of these will vary and therefore one needs to train for it. That is why I make a distinction between the goals of sport and art.

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#220485 - 01/08/06 10:55 AM Re: Martial Art vs. Martial Sport [Re: TeK9]
gojuwarrior1 Offline
tougher than you

Registered: 12/24/02
Posts: 1178
Loc: East Coast, USA
Ok, lets see.When you practice martial art as a sport it pretaines to nothing else in your life, like brushing your teeth or combing your hair.In the martial art way of life it is much more than just doing these things.You strive for perfection and simplicity in everything you do.

At the end of my training session i do not leave my art at the dojo, i take it with me and everything i do from the time i wake up untill i fall asleep, should be as perfect and as simple as possible.Not just my kata and sparring are to be perfect but myself as a person.

Look at the japanese and okinawan masters,everthing from opening a door to pouring tea was perfect THAT my friend is martial art!
_________________________
I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith. 2 Tim. 4:7

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#220486 - 01/08/06 12:14 PM Re: Martial Art vs. Martial Sport [Re: gojuwarrior1]
Sushi Offline
Member

Registered: 11/23/05
Posts: 93
Loc: Germany
Quote:

Ok, lets see.When you practice martial art as a sport it pretaines to nothing else in your life, like brushing your teeth or combing your hair.In the martial art way of life it is much more than just doing these things.You strive for perfection and simplicity in everything you do.



Practising a martial arts with the aim of success in Martial sports you will have to strive for perfection even more! Your are strengthening your body, you have to do work out, you have to build up a perfect physical constitution, you will have to train your kicks just until they are perfect, your repeat those kicks 100.000 times until you are kicking in your sleep (and believe me you do kick when you are sleeping, because your subconsiousness asks for). But no we get to your point. Without a living of privation in sense of time and fun like "sex&drugs&rock and roll" - at least in certain periods- and a lot of psychological strength you got to learn, like respecting your oponent, knowledge about your own strength and weakness, continuing a fight even with broken toes or fingers or ribs, contorlling your aggression, learning to fight cold-blooded and automized..and so on...all these elements are elements of martial arts....and you do not only live with those elements when you wear your dobok, that is what your living looks like in no matter which daily situation of your life.
I wished my English was perfect, so that I could describe it better..

Quote:

At the end of my training session i do not leave my art at the dojo, i take it with me and everything i do from the time i wake up untill i fall asleep, should be as perfect and as simple as possible.Not just my kata and sparring are to be perfect but myself as a person..



that is what martial-sports is like, as well.

Quote:

Look at the japanese and okinawan masters,everthing from opening a door to pouring tea was perfect THAT my friend is martial art!




THAT my friend is Asian CULTURE and it is somehow an art, but it is not necessarily a martial art.

A lot of elements in Asian culture come from martial arts, like never hiding your hand behind your body, learning how to sit down and stand up very smooth and always watching other people around you, being prepared for fast movements, but trinking tea was not combined with a martial art.

So for me there is no martial sports without martial art

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#220487 - 01/08/06 04:06 PM Re: Martial Art vs. Martial Sport [Re: TeK9]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Hmm, interesting.

Firstly, I'd suggest that just because a martial sport isn't the same as a martial art that doesn't mean it has no effect on your life philosophy or have a deeper meaning. After all, many sports people and dancers have a very spiritual and philosophical outlook through their sport/discipline.

A sport can, of course, provide certain benefits which we seek in our MA but may not readily come by, such as the realisation of winning and losing, the fear of conflict and the need for discipline to get up after you lose.

As much as we think MA training gives us this it may not. After all, I might train in a non-competitive art for years and never find myself needing to use it, therefore I may not ever relate it to my everyday life. On the other hand, I might train in a martial sport and find those qualites of self-discipline and resilience more of a requirement through the nature of competition.

Then again, we need to ask what is a martial art? Is archery a sport or an art? What are wrestling or Judo? Judo particularly is used by LEO's etc and is a practical system, however it is also readily used for sport.

At first, I thought that i could say that a Martial sport is something which uses aspects of a Martial Art but limits itself, due to the nature of sport, with regards to applications. It is also geared to competition and winning. However, I realised a lot of this could be said about an MA.

Might I suggest then, that an MA is something in which a Martial Sport can be found and exist, however part of the art is knowing when (and having the ability)to leave the sport behind?
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#220488 - 01/08/06 05:40 PM Re: Martial Art vs. Martial Sport [Re: trevek]
mean_fighter Offline
Member

Registered: 12/18/05
Posts: 160
True trevek. Sport can have an positive impact on a persons life as much as an art can. But overall I feel 50/50 about the whole "sport vs art" thing. Once you think about it dont they need eachother in a way?

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#220489 - 01/08/06 05:58 PM Re: Martial Art vs. Martial Sport [Re: Sushi]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Sushi,

I knew you would have a response for gojuwarrior
After all those who participate in martial sports athletes in training which is one step more than just training in the martial arts.

I think some of the people who post on here should look up the terms Budo, Bujutsu, Martial arts, DO

To get a better understanding. So that they can add more substance to thier posts. I myself have looked up these words and am trying to think of a good way to express myself and explain what martial art/sport is, right now I cant, but so far to me tey are the same.

In terms of self defense, free sparring is the closest thing you have to actual combat. So sparring is very important in training for several reasons, not just technical, physical but also psychological.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#220490 - 01/08/06 05:59 PM Re: Martial Art vs. Martial Sport [Re: TeK9]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
I'll have more for yo guys in a bit, keep posting guys. Everyone is doing great, feel free to add as many posts as you want, we all change our opinions or add to them as time goes on. Keep em coming fellas.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#220491 - 01/08/06 07:33 PM Re: Martial Art vs. Martial Sport [Re: TeK9]
gojuwarrior1 Offline
tougher than you

Registered: 12/24/02
Posts: 1178
Loc: East Coast, USA
Here is a good story about a martial arts master and a martial arts champion. http://www.24fightingchickens.com/2005/10/15/the-master-and-the-champion/ .
_________________________
I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith. 2 Tim. 4:7

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#220492 - 01/08/06 09:44 PM Re: Martial Art vs. Martial Sport [Re: gojuwarrior1]
RazorFoot Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 2064
Loc: Seated at the computer, DUH
I have studied TKD as both and there is a distinct difference to me, at least from the schools I trained with.

In the Martial Art school (Moo Duk Kwan), I sparred in a street practical method for confrontation and learned hapkido techniques to augment my self defence. We studied some poomse but spent the majority of the time training for practical self defence. We used punching and kicking techniques to the face and all target areas. We used leg strikes to set up other techniques and elbows and knees were used much more frequently than in my other school.

Martial Sport (Kukkiwon), trains for olympic style sparring relying significantly on the roundhouse kick. The majority of the strikes are to the body with no punches to the face and only kicking to the face at the black belt level only. We train for sport copetition with only a small part of the time dedicated to practical self defence.

The sport aspect has helped me and hurt me a bit. The sport aspect is much more demanding physically because the training pushes me to the limits of my stamina. I am in better shape now that I have ever been from a stamina perspective. In having to select which targets I can and cannot strike with certain techniques (punches and no low kicks), I have had to alter my basic sparring/fighting style. In my mind, this has hurt my sparring.

Depending on what you are looking for, either has its benefit. I prefer training for practical self defence but having done so in the past, I can apply what I am studying now to those circumstances. I fight/spar outside of class which helps me to retrain my mind and body to fight without the sporting limitations I put on myself when I am doing olympic style sparring.

There is a definite difference so check things out well before you sign up for a school or for a specific type of training. Make sure it fits your specific needs/desires/goals.

Good luck and have fun,

Scottie
_________________________
"The greatest way to live with honor in this world is to be what we pretend to be."

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#220493 - 01/09/06 01:06 AM Re: Martial Art vs. Martial Sport [Re: RazorFoot]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Scottie thought my training is not as extensive as yours I find that you have many commonalities with myself in the respect that I've trained both. Your statements:

Quote:

I sparred in a street practical method for confrontation and learned hapkido techniques to augment my self defence. We studied some poomse but spent the majority of the time training for practical self defence. We used punching and kicking techniques to the face and all target areas. We used leg strikes to set up other techniques and elbows and knees were used much more frequently than in my other school.




and

Quote:

Martial Sport (Kukkiwon), trains for olympic style sparring relying significantly on the roundhouse kick. The majority of the strikes are to the body with no punches to the face and only kicking to the face at the black belt level only.




Are much like myself thought kicking the the head was at senior belt (blue and above) or when sparring with somebody you could decide if you wanted to or not should the Instructor say so. As well it wasn't just roundhouses as the primary kick but I would have to say it was for many.

I also agree with

Quote:

The sport aspect is much more demanding physically because the training pushes me to the limits of my stamina.




Sparring one match after another and another and possible 10 times for 1 to 2 minutes each is demanding.

I also agree both have their merrit.

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#220494 - 01/09/06 05:45 PM Re: Martial Art vs. Martial Sport [Re: RazorFoot]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
I had an article published on this topic - The Martial Question - . Check it out at my website. http://www.geocities.com/ustfregion5/What.htm

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#220495 - 01/10/06 11:52 AM Re: Martial Art vs. Martial Sport [Re: Dereck]
Hapkid0ist Offline
Member

Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 125
Loc: Hollyhood, Ca.
A martial art is an art studied as a way of life.
A martial sport is an art where one seeks competative opportunities in a regulated inviroment, be it for cash, trophies, glory. It is where the main goal is competition in a sporting venue and not a life choice.
This being said, some can choose a martial sport and keep it as a martial art. It is completely possible to study and train in something as a life style choice, yet still be competative in the sporting cirucit. Aa martial sport also can cross over to a martial art. It is all in how the practitioner carries it.
_________________________
D.W. McCullar, Hapkido
I.H.K.A./I.H.M.U.Ca. Chief Instructor, 5th Dan
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#220496 - 01/10/06 12:31 PM Re: Martial Art vs. Martial Sport [Re: Hapkid0ist]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I agree with Sport and Art statemnet. I have some friends now too old to compete they range from Boxers, Wrestlers, MT boxers, Karatekas, TKDs and others once they get too old to compete its over they hang up training and just talk about what could have been & never train again.

Judo seems different its seems to hold the older practitioners through out some times and its usually heavy on competition. Some like Aikido, Jujitsu and Hapkido seem to draw more older students that want to continue training in a Do or self defense art. Not the same we know but the draw is older crowd most of the times. Younger people are attracted to this way also, not ruffle any feathers, I was.

Karate/TKD/Gung/Kungfu/Sialt... the above mentioned and others have a large number of S/D students. Bc its stresses continued growth throughout life.

It only makes sense you can only compete so long, its hard to see a once excellent fighters still fighting a young mans game. Some can compete but its rougher on them, then it was when they were younger.

My last fight people asking when and where was I fighting again. But I knew it was over. Too many near misses on me, too many of me stumbling and just could get there in time. I won that HW division. You really know when it time, some just you live in denial. It not about winning, its about giving your best performance, you know when you can't give 100% anymore, in that arena.

But I am still a Perpetual student of the MAs.


Edited by Neko456 (01/10/06 12:36 PM)
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#220497 - 01/10/06 08:48 PM Re: Martial Art vs. Martial Sport [Re: trevek]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Trevek,

Good job I htink your on the right path. At least for me my opinion is currently very similar to yours. Thats why I started this thread so I can add to my conclusion. Right now I can't see a clear distinction between the two. But I hope to come to an understanding real soon.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#220498 - 01/11/06 02:39 AM Re: Martial Art vs. Martial Sport [Re: Hapkid0ist]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
I'd question that training in a sport is not also a way of life. I can't see how the sacrifice and discipline needed to successfully train in any sport cannot be considered a way of life.

Let's not forget, many sports people are never that successful at their sports that they win, but they continue training. How many people have trained for years in MA and then find themselves ex-MAists after they get a demanding job, or get married, or move somewhere else. I nearly found myself walking that path after over 10 years of training.

Let's not forget, many sports competitiors become trainers when their competitive career is over. I can think of a number of successful people who first became well known as sports competitors and have since gone on to have successful business or political careers. Can't we say that the discipline and training of their sports training has been useful to them in their careers outside of sports? Surely then we must consider sports can also be a way of life.
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#220499 - 01/11/06 06:38 AM Re: Martial Art vs. Martial Sport [Re: gojuwarrior1]
nospoon_TKD Offline
Member

Registered: 01/25/05
Posts: 110
Loc: Netherlands
Amen..
_________________________
"I have good looking kids. Thank goodness my wife cheats on me."

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#220500 - 01/11/06 06:41 AM Re: Martial Art vs. Martial Sport [Re: gojuwarrior1]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Goju I love that story. If you find or have anymore like it please let me know. I love reading them and expressing them to my students. Story time kids. woot woot!
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#220501 - 01/11/06 06:46 AM Re: Martial Art vs. Martial Sport [Re: trevek]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Nice job treek, stick and move baby, stick and move.
I agree sports can defiently be a way of life. Remember guys what makes martial arts different from "just a fighting sytem" is that they teach philosophy, morals, self development through self discipline. TKD whether taught as sport or traditional...is still considered a martial art. BooYaKa!

Keep the posts coming fellas, this duscussion is getting interesting.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#220502 - 01/11/06 07:32 AM Re: Martial Art vs. Martial Sport [Re: TeK9]
nospoon_TKD Offline
Member

Registered: 01/25/05
Posts: 110
Loc: Netherlands
What about the people who earn their money with it, are they also MA's?

// more oil on the fire..
_________________________
"I have good looking kids. Thank goodness my wife cheats on me."

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#220503 - 01/11/06 07:49 AM Re: Martial Art vs. Martial Sport [Re: nospoon_TKD]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Hmmm good question I have no idea. I taught over 100 students for 3 years for free. At the local gym. The last year and a half I was being payed. Once my instructor opened a new school he took over my 100 students. So i pretty much bank rolled his school. SO now I recieve free lessons. I did it for the love of the art. I was also inspired by my instrucotr. When I first met him in 2000' he was only charging 50 dollars per person. And he was giving family discounts. A family of 8 people were only paying $200 a month. What a saint!

I thought here is a guy who loves this art. Not to mention he teachers the aspect of TKD which most schools charge extra for teaching, he teaches sports tkd and trains atheltes. MOst TKD schools charge extra for this kind of training because its modern. Most traditional instructors dont know much about modern sports sparring and strategies. Thats why I always say. It doesn't matter whether a school is a member of the WTF that doesnt mean they know anything about olympic style sparring.

As a matter of fact there was another school in town, who lost 25 students to us, and I'm talking about state and national champions because they were not recieving the proper training.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#220504 - 01/11/06 11:57 AM Re: Martial Art vs. Martial Sport [Re: nospoon_TKD]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Rembrandt painted for money... a commercial painter or an artist?
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See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

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#220505 - 01/11/06 11:57 AM Re: Martial Art vs. Martial Sport [Re: nospoon_TKD]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Rembrandt painted for money... a commercial painter or an artist?

I'd suggests artists are often people who can afford to be.
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#220506 - 01/13/06 01:33 AM Re: Martial Art vs. Martial Sport [Re: gojuwarrior1]
Isshinryukid4life Offline
Professional Injury causer

Registered: 12/07/03
Posts: 2455
Loc: Knoxville.
Now thats what I'm talking about.
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