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#220482 - 01/08/06 05:45 AM Re: Martial Art vs. Martial Sport [Re: TeK9]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
Quote:

I've been thinking about the debate between M-arts and M-sports, to me it's beggining to sound ust like politics between the old and the new.




I think your description of "old" and "new" arts, is pejorative. I would rather say that Martial Sports are centred around a different goal to Martial arts. MS focus on point scoring in a controlled environment, MAs focus on defending oneself in an unpredictable environment.

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#220483 - 01/08/06 07:49 AM Re: Martial Art vs. Martial Sport [Re: Supremor]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Scoring a point could be seen as scoring a punch or kick in self defense or in fighting. Free sparring is the next best thing to actual combat.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#220484 - 01/08/06 09:52 AM Re: Martial Art vs. Martial Sport [Re: TeK9]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
But the boundary conditions never change. You will always start off at fighting distance from each other, and neither of you will have a weapon, and the sparring ring will always be a set size.

In an SD situation, all of these will vary and therefore one needs to train for it. That is why I make a distinction between the goals of sport and art.

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#220485 - 01/08/06 10:55 AM Re: Martial Art vs. Martial Sport [Re: TeK9]
gojuwarrior1 Offline
tougher than you

Registered: 12/24/02
Posts: 1178
Loc: East Coast, USA
Ok, lets see.When you practice martial art as a sport it pretaines to nothing else in your life, like brushing your teeth or combing your hair.In the martial art way of life it is much more than just doing these things.You strive for perfection and simplicity in everything you do.

At the end of my training session i do not leave my art at the dojo, i take it with me and everything i do from the time i wake up untill i fall asleep, should be as perfect and as simple as possible.Not just my kata and sparring are to be perfect but myself as a person.

Look at the japanese and okinawan masters,everthing from opening a door to pouring tea was perfect THAT my friend is martial art!
_________________________
I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith. 2 Tim. 4:7

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#220486 - 01/08/06 12:14 PM Re: Martial Art vs. Martial Sport [Re: gojuwarrior1]
Sushi Offline
Member

Registered: 11/23/05
Posts: 93
Loc: Germany
Quote:

Ok, lets see.When you practice martial art as a sport it pretaines to nothing else in your life, like brushing your teeth or combing your hair.In the martial art way of life it is much more than just doing these things.You strive for perfection and simplicity in everything you do.



Practising a martial arts with the aim of success in Martial sports you will have to strive for perfection even more! Your are strengthening your body, you have to do work out, you have to build up a perfect physical constitution, you will have to train your kicks just until they are perfect, your repeat those kicks 100.000 times until you are kicking in your sleep (and believe me you do kick when you are sleeping, because your subconsiousness asks for). But no we get to your point. Without a living of privation in sense of time and fun like "sex&drugs&rock and roll" - at least in certain periods- and a lot of psychological strength you got to learn, like respecting your oponent, knowledge about your own strength and weakness, continuing a fight even with broken toes or fingers or ribs, contorlling your aggression, learning to fight cold-blooded and automized..and so on...all these elements are elements of martial arts....and you do not only live with those elements when you wear your dobok, that is what your living looks like in no matter which daily situation of your life.
I wished my English was perfect, so that I could describe it better..

Quote:

At the end of my training session i do not leave my art at the dojo, i take it with me and everything i do from the time i wake up untill i fall asleep, should be as perfect and as simple as possible.Not just my kata and sparring are to be perfect but myself as a person..



that is what martial-sports is like, as well.

Quote:

Look at the japanese and okinawan masters,everthing from opening a door to pouring tea was perfect THAT my friend is martial art!




THAT my friend is Asian CULTURE and it is somehow an art, but it is not necessarily a martial art.

A lot of elements in Asian culture come from martial arts, like never hiding your hand behind your body, learning how to sit down and stand up very smooth and always watching other people around you, being prepared for fast movements, but trinking tea was not combined with a martial art.

So for me there is no martial sports without martial art

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#220487 - 01/08/06 04:06 PM Re: Martial Art vs. Martial Sport [Re: TeK9]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3331
Loc: Poland
Hmm, interesting.

Firstly, I'd suggest that just because a martial sport isn't the same as a martial art that doesn't mean it has no effect on your life philosophy or have a deeper meaning. After all, many sports people and dancers have a very spiritual and philosophical outlook through their sport/discipline.

A sport can, of course, provide certain benefits which we seek in our MA but may not readily come by, such as the realisation of winning and losing, the fear of conflict and the need for discipline to get up after you lose.

As much as we think MA training gives us this it may not. After all, I might train in a non-competitive art for years and never find myself needing to use it, therefore I may not ever relate it to my everyday life. On the other hand, I might train in a martial sport and find those qualites of self-discipline and resilience more of a requirement through the nature of competition.

Then again, we need to ask what is a martial art? Is archery a sport or an art? What are wrestling or Judo? Judo particularly is used by LEO's etc and is a practical system, however it is also readily used for sport.

At first, I thought that i could say that a Martial sport is something which uses aspects of a Martial Art but limits itself, due to the nature of sport, with regards to applications. It is also geared to competition and winning. However, I realised a lot of this could be said about an MA.

Might I suggest then, that an MA is something in which a Martial Sport can be found and exist, however part of the art is knowing when (and having the ability)to leave the sport behind?
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#220488 - 01/08/06 05:40 PM Re: Martial Art vs. Martial Sport [Re: trevek]
mean_fighter Offline
Member

Registered: 12/18/05
Posts: 160
True trevek. Sport can have an positive impact on a persons life as much as an art can. But overall I feel 50/50 about the whole "sport vs art" thing. Once you think about it dont they need eachother in a way?

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#220489 - 01/08/06 05:58 PM Re: Martial Art vs. Martial Sport [Re: Sushi]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Sushi,

I knew you would have a response for gojuwarrior
After all those who participate in martial sports athletes in training which is one step more than just training in the martial arts.

I think some of the people who post on here should look up the terms Budo, Bujutsu, Martial arts, DO

To get a better understanding. So that they can add more substance to thier posts. I myself have looked up these words and am trying to think of a good way to express myself and explain what martial art/sport is, right now I cant, but so far to me tey are the same.

In terms of self defense, free sparring is the closest thing you have to actual combat. So sparring is very important in training for several reasons, not just technical, physical but also psychological.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#220490 - 01/08/06 05:59 PM Re: Martial Art vs. Martial Sport [Re: TeK9]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
I'll have more for yo guys in a bit, keep posting guys. Everyone is doing great, feel free to add as many posts as you want, we all change our opinions or add to them as time goes on. Keep em coming fellas.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#220491 - 01/08/06 07:33 PM Re: Martial Art vs. Martial Sport [Re: TeK9]
gojuwarrior1 Offline
tougher than you

Registered: 12/24/02
Posts: 1178
Loc: East Coast, USA
Here is a good story about a martial arts master and a martial arts champion. http://www.24fightingchickens.com/2005/10/15/the-master-and-the-champion/ .
_________________________
I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith. 2 Tim. 4:7

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