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#219026 - 01/04/06 05:51 PM Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? [Re: Neko456]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Neko456 -

I said what I did because the odds aren't for you (in multiple attacker situations). I should have prefaced it by saying that anything is possible.

If my multiple attackers are former Navy SEALs or 4th graders makes a bit of a difference. Sure I can beat a group of guys back maybe, and it would help if they were all in wheelchairs. I hope you get my point.

It completely depends on all factors present. Are my opponents tough and experienced or are they Woody Allen and Don Knotts? Or somewhere in between. Are there only two or TWENTY.

Luck is a bit of a factor as well. Perhaps you were. Perhaps you had more to fight *for* than THEY did. Committment is everything. How committed are they, and how committed are you. Etc. etc.

All that being said, I would bet the HOUSE that I can find a lot more stories where people who got mobbed ended up with toe-tags than those where they ended up beating the mob itself.

There's a reason for that.


-John

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#219027 - 01/04/06 06:10 PM Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? [Re: JKogas]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Quote:

Woody Allen and Don Knotts?




Sorry for the interjection without point to the thread, but damn...that was funny!

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#219028 - 01/04/06 09:41 PM Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? [Re: butterfly]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina



-John

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#219029 - 01/04/06 09:50 PM Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? [Re: Ed Glasheen]
DullBlade42 Offline
Uber-Cool Shindig Host

Registered: 11/22/04
Posts: 1277
Loc: Long York, New Island
Leaving out environment, weapons, etc, and working on what you have given, I'd practice my running skills. Give a good, "Look over yonder!" and then run like I have just insulted a serial killer's mother. Provided she is still living.

Running is always an option...even if it means having to bust open a space for you to escape.

While planning my ingenius Running strategy, I try not to get too close to anyone, always keep my hands up, be verbal as in trying to diffuse the situation as best as you can (though the mob mentality factor is strong), and staying calm. Trying to stay calm, I mean, let's be realistic- there's going to be some difference in my relaxation between me going to the beach and me being surrounding my many people who'd want to give me a rather large amount of pain.

And usually try to not go to the ground. You know, if you haven't had the oppurtunity to run and someone somehow manages to push you, I'd get up immediately given that there's nobody or nobody's fists there when I get up.
_________________________
I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it. -Mitch Hedberg

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#219030 - 01/05/06 04:04 AM Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? [Re: DullBlade42]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:

I'd get up immediately given that there's nobody or nobody's fists there when I get up.




Its not the fists that are the problem, its the attacks on your way to your feet that are difficult in this situation.

I have been in a couple of group situations and both I walked away from- this I consider successful. Did I 'beat' either group? hell no.

First one I 'went feotal'- curled up like a ball with my hands covering my head, having been put on my ar$e when drunk. Took my beating, took a week off work, but did not have to go to hospital. This was a good result IMO.

Second one I was steadier on my feet, the altercation took place from the taxi office, and was a hit 'n run 'n shout 'n threaten affair all the way up to my local pub (200 meters approx) where it became a group on group affair for approximately 2 minutes until the police showed up and stopped it.
I didnt get anything other than a cut under my eye and was fine the next day.

I was so popular in my hometown
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

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#219031 - 01/05/06 09:13 AM Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? [Re: Ed Glasheen]
J_Pereira Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/04/06
Posts: 11
Loc: Portugal
Against multiple attackers, I would have to go with the Run Like Hell solution.
If possible, throwing some coins at them, as as been sugested, or creating another form of distraction and get a good head start.

If forced to fight, my first priority would be to try and get some kind of weapon, a broomstick, a car aerial, etc.
I don't know if I would back up against a wall. Of course it can prevent you from being surrounded and attacked from behind, but it also diminishes your possible escape routes.
A good strategy, IMHO, is to move with the intention of keeping your attackers in a straight line, to avoid multiple attacks at the same time, and keep looking for a chance to escape.

In my school we don't have any specific training for this kind of situations.

Regards,
JP
_________________________
This is the true secret of Karate, coexisting with your opponent. - Shigeru Egami

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#219032 - 01/05/06 11:03 AM Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? [Re: JKogas]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I totally agree, but when you change the level of play like 3 Navy Seals or Special forces even a Sig won't help you, most of time these guys are armed most believe after surviving Nam, Desert Strom, Turkey/Iraqi or Somolia their not going to let some poop butt kill them for some BS. So it would be Sig on Sig. Anyway just the people I know. Most are like us, won't attack you 2-4 on 1 (unless drunk).

As for the Multiple not being skilled I get this alot especially when I tell the mistakes the attackers made but it not funny at the time nor is it until others point it out. I take every attack on me serious I never say that these 2 or 3 or 4 guys are chumps, I fight them like they are Tank Abbott (I hate Tank, but I think he's tough as nails) until I can tell they are not. Even if they are in a wheel chairs!!! You order sh%^, you eat it.

I agree the odds are not with you. We do plan mass attacks on 1 person, knowing what they might do helps in defending against it. The dive in attempted leg tackle just to hold you there while the other pound and ground you is almost a losing cause, except for the person holding on. His mission is almost suicidal but he helps you make that fatal mistake, being a stationery target.

Theres a fatal police video where a large officer was killed by 3 smaller men. We remake this scenario numerous times and concluded that we get better results bracing for the tackle and firing on the other two men with deadly force then disposing of the tackler. The officer didn't have this chance to train and test over and over to get the best safest for him results. So we learn from his sacrafice.

Multiple attacks are not practiced for effectiveness most of the time. Now some gangs practice multiple assaults as a initiation to their group. Most of the time they end up like Cord in the fetal cover positions and survive.

As for the mob attack 2-3 on 1 just firing on each other unless you get clipped hard you can fight your way to the door. In bar fights or gang fights you can come out with minor injuries if you are lucky, skill and training does factor in. Weather its just taking a cut on the outside of arm instead of the inside or center mass (knowing were it would be least damaging), striking to the thorat or eyes (knowing were to strike), all these things will help you survive. Knowing how to hit hard and instictively effective helps, weak 2-3s don't want what they just witness, even if they do its won't change your striking power. Makes running easier when they just act like they want to catch U.

Don Knotts or Woody Allens could kill you if you give them a chance, they are semi-full grown men. I'd give them respect/hit them hard as if they where Tank Abbott as mention I really dislike him, or if they were Special forces, I admire FS. You never know, then I'd run like wind.

Thinking you are gonna run with out no contact is a myth too. If you knew it was coming you would have stayed home.

Woody and Don's gonna hit you or swing at you a couple of times before you take off. The contact decides if you are the sack being kicked or the rocket, way gone. They gonna know whats up way before you, its gonna be give and take for a second. Don't play anybody short.

We agree its improbably, but thats why we practice.


Edited by Neko456 (01/05/06 11:22 AM)
_________________________
DBAckerson

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#219033 - 01/05/06 01:38 PM Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? [Re: Neko456]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
I just feel that there is little if any practical return on your investment if you spend a lot of time thinking about multiples. The way the training would have to be constructed for realism requires such preparation and specific role play factors, I think you would be better off learning how to fight in class and then going out and spending a saturday afternoon playing football in the park.

That's just me.
_________________________
www.brazilianjiujitsunaples.com

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#219034 - 01/05/06 03:46 PM Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? [Re: Fletch1]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I feel ya, coming from a LEO and grappling back ground multiple attacks must seem like defending against suicide bombers, I mean when your grand Powpa Master Rickson (I admire this guy technical skills fighting 1 person) states thats its not possible and from the casualties in LEO in these situations, I'd see why U think this is useless or MM time spent.

But its still doesn't change the fact that it has happen and people can be successful in defending and fighting off attackers until they can escape. My eyes don't lie to me.

Knowing and begining prepared helps, in just the major dos and don't, it make you aware of when these attack starts.
Sorta like not giving up your back to a guy with good choke or straight arm a guy to push him off you. Unless you r setting him up for a counter for the arm bar. Same difference.

I believe so much in this that I start this practice at 5th kyu very basic for a complex situtaion. I explain the odds and the main purpose is escape or find a weapon (wood/paper) and even the odds, use it to find a hole to escape.

Probabilites. Life on the line Professionals and MA people like U, practice defense against offensive gun attack like the quick draw, knives & guns, spear and sword defense. Its all part of MA somebody must have pulled it off for it to still be practiced, its somebodies truth. I know cowboy shooters that are actually faster with their single action (really a five shot) revovler then I am with my 1911 or any semi-auto (except for loading oc). Why? How? With practice the improbable becomes probable, even to be a fact. Now I can't do that the single action revolver is the slowest thing since molasses syrup in my hands. But I've seen this with my own eyes, mono mono.

I also practice firing on multiple moving targets from 15 yards - 3yrds (supposibly armed with body armour) I do the cntr mass shot, thigh and head bounce. How probably is this? I guess I like JO. Not very, I'm bound to get tagged by one of them. But my principle is the same shoot from barricade instead of cover retreat but maintain fire to hold them at bay to affect an escape. The MA principle is fight in these situation until you escape, if not you die trying.

It's not all about winning, its about surviving and being prepared helps you do that. I'm sure I don't have to tell you fighting mutilples, were not talking about fighting fair they broke the rules when they attacked in numbers.

This is how different each school cirriculum can be, based on different truths. Now I don't teach 5 men pinning one man escape or counters, a 5th dan JJ man and his students say he can do it. I've yet to see it. MM? maybe.

As for usefulness If I've formed the mental toughness, stamina, speed, power and techniques to take on 2 or 3, how difficult would 1 person be especially if I given the mental signal that more might be coming!!! It gives a fighter edge. Preparation is always valid if put in action and just not MM.

If you think you've Lost, then you have.


Edited by Neko456 (01/05/06 04:09 PM)

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#219035 - 01/06/06 03:28 PM Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? [Re: Neko456]
1neikoot Offline
Member

Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 230
Loc: Candy Land
I did'nt bother reading all the responses on the thread, but it looks like running is the best option.

How about this one (if it was'nt mentioned already). Intimidate your opponents by beating the krap out of one as quickly as possible, I saw this a couple of times where 3-4 guys were about to attack, usually one guy comes up first, he's the first one that has to get pummeled, then hopefully the others might rethink the situation or you can just run from there. Just evaluating the situation differantly, it may or may not work, running also may or may not work.

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