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#218588 - 01/04/06 10:33 AM Re: 2 sword questioins please [Re: underdog]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Something my son said when I started...

"Once you pick up the bo...you never really put it back down."

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#218589 - 01/04/06 10:51 AM Re: 2 sword questioins please [Re: Charles Mahan]
Walter Wong Offline
Member

Registered: 12/09/04
Posts: 275
Loc: Boston, Massachusetts, United ...
Quote:

Keep in mind, jo and presumably bo, aren't made of softwoods. They're made of old growth white oak. Which is to say, a hardwood of very tight grain. Considering their relatively small diameter, jo are suprisingly heavy. I'm not at all confident that under any circumstances I would be able to cut through a period jo. Now double the diameter for a bo. Not gonna happen.

But like we keep saying. Who cares? You need to cut the guy wielding the bo.



But Tom Cruise cut through a rifle and the soldier in Last Samurai. Must be because his sword was made by Shoji Yoshihara in the village.

Obviously you don't have a Shoji Yoshihara blade Charles.
_________________________
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#218590 - 01/04/06 11:32 AM Re: 2 sword questioins please [Re: harlan]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
Harlan

I'm not sure that would be all that interesting to folks.

Also not sure that I would not just be repeating things people already know.

Plus this is really hard to describe on-line.

But I will give it a wack

But my take on things is that VERY GENERAL fashion the "normal" method of using the bo in Okinawan kobudo is usually gripping near the center of the weapon---some applications/methods/people "choke up" so to speak so they have a longer "reach" or comabtive distance.

Several grips are used, one hand knuckles "up" the other knuckles "down" (kinda like you would grip a ball bat--kinda) sometimes both hands are knuckels "up"

The weapon is swung with enough force to break bones and kill--and its quite fast.

But as far as I am concerned the manner of its use was not designed to regulary fight sword armed oppts.
Its use makes perfect sense for the weapons and situations the Okinawans would have faced for the realities of their specific situaiton.

Which is no surprise to anyone---all combative arts are designed to deal with the dangers "normally" faced by the people in question.

My exposure to the Japanese bo is limited--but GENERALLY they seem to have a very different method of use.

The koryu/classical Japanese method involves gripping the bo at the extreme end, one hand nearly on the butt of the weapon the other maybe foot higher (kinda depends on personal prefernce) the grip is is with both hands "knuckles up" and the blows--coming from side to side, overhand, or up from the floor are done in such a way that the full body weight can be placed behind each blow without sacrificing speed or control.

Feels very "odd" if you have never done it before--but the strikes are very, very powerful, very very fast and you have MUCH more distance between you and your oppt.

I can only assume that is a reflecton of the greater need to keep greater distance between you and a sword armed oppt.

The Japanese method keeps most of the bo between you and your attacker--you have about 4-5 feet of "reach" so to speak MUCH greater than the sword has.
The maai is longer.

The Okinwawn method seems to be "shorter" the method of grip/use only give you a shorter appox distance between you and you attacker.

NOT "BETTER" OR "WORSE" JUST "DIFFERENT"

Plus I am pretty sure that professional warriors used many methods as the situation required----I am only speaking in generalites here.

I also see many similarities between this method and the methods used by Western period halbrad users--much like I see in the use of the katana and the western hand and half sword, two handed sword, etc.

Is any of this at all helpful??????


Edited by cxt (01/04/06 11:38 AM)

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#218591 - 01/04/06 11:33 AM Re: 2 sword questioins please [Re: cxt]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Yes. Thank you.

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#218592 - 01/04/06 12:02 PM Re: 2 sword questioins please [Re: cxt]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
I spent some time with the jo a few years back. It is roughly equivalent in size to a pool cue and should be thought of as a short spear (jari?). From what I observed and practiced, there is no "preferred" grip. On the contrary, the grip shifts along the length of the weapon depending on the block and blow you are using. This can become anything from a two-handed strike from above, a leverage butt upper cut from below, a full-length round house, to something very like a pool-break thrust, and anything in between. You get rapped on the knuckles a lot. My sensei wore hockey gloves.

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#218593 - 01/04/06 12:37 PM Re: 2 sword questioins please [Re: iaibear]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
iai

I was taking about the bo--not the jo.

But the grip I mention is also used in jo--along with other.

Again, I am not an expert in the bo methods used across the board by all koryu arts--kinda why I used the word "generally" to indicate something in "general" to illustrate a point of difference in usage.

The Japanese bo is also used in a varity of ways--thrusting etc.
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#218594 - 01/04/06 06:02 PM Re: 2 sword questioins please [Re: cxt]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
Forgive me, please. I know I was off-topic, but I have never worked out in a venue with a tall enough ceiling to accommodate a bo. Jo was as close as I could come. But they still can be awesome against a bokken or katana.

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#218595 - 01/04/06 06:17 PM Re: 2 sword questioins please [Re: iaibear]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
Iai

Agreed!

Yes they can!!!


Edited by cxt (01/04/06 06:18 PM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#218596 - 01/06/06 12:42 PM Re: 2 sword questioins please [Re: cxt]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
Quote:

Iai

Agreed!

Yes they can!!!




I agree. Jo can be very effective against a swordsman, but the jo man has to be REALLY good. The margin of error is very small for the Jo wielder. Even a flubbed glancing blow with a shinken can be devestating. Not true with a jo. The Jo mans timing has to be very good, but yes they can do nasty things to swordsman.
_________________________
Iaido - Breaking down bad habits, and building new ones.

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#218597 - 01/21/06 12:30 AM Re: 2 sword questioins please [Re: underdog]
Demonologist437 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/03/05
Posts: 159
Loc: Hodunk, Illinios
It's been mentioned, and Musashi has been quoted, but in my mind it depends greatly I would imagine on which side you are on.
Saying it's dependent on your training or your opponent's training in my mind is simple; for that opens a host of varibles up for scrutiny. Not to say that those varables are
trivial of course, they surely do make a difference. But sometimes it can be rending to have imagine your opponent is skilled because of the many adjustments then you might have to make to your bunkai. As I've always thought of it, yes many more people used the bo/jo back then than they do currently, but not every single one of them were as proficient as a dedicated disciple of bo/jo would be. Or even half of that sometimes. The sword was of course then without difference.
However, as it has been mentioned what can make a difference as well whether you hold the sword or the bo/jo.
If the sword, you would probably be better trying to cut the wielder of the bo/jo as opposed to his weapon; not because of any particular riff-raff about cuting but just the fact that it's usually faster and not too much more difficult to do. Even in a confrontation greater than 1-1, it is better to kill the person so he cannot attack you further, than killing his bo/jo and he still being able to attack you further. Perhaps there is some long forgotten or secret bunkai many of us have not seen that details how destruction of the weapon supersedes destruction of the owner in any kind of confrontation somewhere, but I doubt it highly. In a single confrontation, obviously there is not exuse to just cut him and get it over with, except for maybe the most extreme circumstances where you are supposed to wound pride over flesh for a reason.
If you hold the bo/jo however, most if not all the above would apply, and as to worrying about him trying to cut in half your weapon as opposed to you, I would not worry to hard on this thought. You should be able to parry and strike the sword-wielder proficiently fairly simply. It is not difficult.

That is my 2-cents. Apologies for it being a little long-winded.
_________________________
"Success is a process, not a destination. Have faith in your ability."~Bruce Lee

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