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#218568 - 12/30/05 11:41 AM 2 sword questioins please
underdog Offline
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Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
I'm sorry this is a basic post. I don't fight with sword or bo nor do I know enough about either to post in this section. I'm working on kata bunkai and I need a couple of facts to make it make sense. Please help. (1) Can a real sword cut through a bo the size as that which would have actually been historically in use, (not the light weight skinny thing I do kata with) at a perpendicular angle? ... at an oblique angle? About how many strikes could a bo take before the sword could cut through? Would it ever happen that a sword would get caught in a bo because it didn't strike completely through? ... or would that action just break the bo? Thanks so much for the help.
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#218569 - 12/30/05 12:38 PM Re: 2 sword questioins please [Re: underdog]
shinobi_v1 Offline
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Registered: 12/30/05
Posts: 8
Loc: the shadows
kinda depends on a few things...how hard you swing the sword..the type of sword..type of wood the bo staff is made of...a good staff is hard to break..but not unbreakable... i hope that helps dude
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#218570 - 12/30/05 12:56 PM Re: 2 sword questioins please [Re: underdog]
Foundation Offline
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Registered: 03/21/05
Posts: 343
It depends on what sword you use, how hard the blow is, of what material the bo is made and at what angle the impact is.
For example this swordhttp://www.armor.com/2000/catalog/item075.html will have quite less chance to break the bo than this one
http://www.armor.com/2000/catalog/item100.html
Since the second one is wielded with 2 hands (resulting in a harder blow), and weighs quite a bit more.

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#218571 - 12/30/05 01:59 PM Re: 2 sword questioins please [Re: underdog]
traq Offline
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Registered: 11/16/05
Posts: 131
Loc: SoCal
Assuming they've got a good sword (like one that would have historically been in use), I think it would be more accurate to say that it depends on the person who's holding the sword. If they really know what they're doing, then yes, they'll cut through the bo and probably your wrist too.
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#218572 - 12/30/05 02:31 PM Re: 2 sword questioins please [Re: traq]
Charles Mahan Offline
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Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
Well in Japan, the Jo was used to great affect, and it is considerably thinner than a bo, about as thick as your thumb. I'm in no particular hurry to try to cut through my jo. Sounds like a great way to ruin my blade. I'd say it depends mostly on the person wielding the jo and the person wielding the sword. If the sword guy isn't very careful, the Jo man is likely to break his sword.


Edited by Charles Mahan (12/30/05 02:31 PM)
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#218573 - 12/30/05 06:28 PM Re: 2 sword questioins please [Re: Charles Mahan]
underdog Offline
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Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
Thank you, your answers are very helpful so far. I see that the bo was no match for the sword, even the heavier bo. I guess the strategy would be to keep the swordsman at a distance. Does angle of strike matter? I remember striking through waterlogged bamboo mats or something rolled up and mounted on a peg. The instructions were to strike with the sword, at an angle. The angle cuts went through. If the bo defender could control the angle, would that help? or it wouldn't matter? Thanks again.
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#218574 - 12/31/05 01:54 AM Re: 2 sword questioins please [Re: underdog]
Charles Mahan Offline
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Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
So you've decided that bo can be cut? I sincerely doubt it. If bo are constructed anything like jo only thicker, I suspect it would be all but impossible to cut under even the most ideal circumstances. cutting through one in the hands of someone who knew what he was doing would be difficult for nearly anyone.

As I said, bo aren't my strongsuit, but i know a little about it's smaller sibling the Jo. I'd be suprised if anyone on this forum, with the possible exception of Hyaku-sensei, who I'm guessing is in no hurry to try it out, could cut one with the average katana. It is far more likely that the sword will fail, probably in spectacular fashion.

But really, this is a pointless exercise as the goal is not to cut your enemy's bo, but rather to cut your enemy. Then you can saw it in half as your enemy lies dying.
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#218575 - 12/31/05 04:24 AM Re: 2 sword questioins please [Re: underdog]
Foundation Offline
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Registered: 03/21/05
Posts: 343
Angle does affect, the lower the angle the more wood you have to cut to get through the bo, at 90° it's the shortest way, at 0° you have to split the whole staff.
Of course if the bo is standing vertical you can hit harder at lower angles due to gravity. If the bo is horizontal, you should hit at 90°.

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#218576 - 12/31/05 08:24 AM Re: 2 sword questioins please [Re: underdog]
hyaku Offline
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Registered: 10/07/04
Posts: 85
Loc: JAPAN
Why on earth would anyone want to cut through a bo when the purpose would be to avoid it and cut through it's user.

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#218577 - 12/31/05 10:53 AM Re: 2 sword questioins please [Re: hyaku]
underdog Offline
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Registered: 09/18/04
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Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
Oh I know the idea is to attack the user I'm wondering about the effecasy of the defense! Like I said, I'm no swordsman, just a general martial artist working on bunkai for kata. I found myself with moves to justify, and absolutely little practical information about the sword! Thank you for the privlege of your responses. It is actually making more interested in the sword, and the bo. I may become a more frequent, albeit silent, reader of this section.
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#218578 - 12/31/05 02:30 PM Re: 2 sword questioins please [Re: underdog]
traq Offline
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Registered: 11/16/05
Posts: 131
Loc: SoCal
30 - 45 degrees is a better cutting angle than 90.

as far as defense goes, the best thing to do is not to "block" with the bo, but to push the sword away from hitting you. catch it on its side and avoid the blade, then smack the guy in the face. this is the same concept used when blocking with a sword, btw, blocking with the blade edge (ha) will chip it.

and yes, one of the great advantages of a bo is its reach.
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#218579 - 12/31/05 05:53 PM Re: 2 sword questioins please [Re: traq]
Halley Offline
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Registered: 06/13/05
Posts: 126
Quote:

As far as defense goes, the best thing to do is not to "block" with the bo, but to push the sword away from hitting you. catch it on its side and avoid the blade, then smack the guy in the face.




"Although the guard positions may be divided into five kinds, all of them are for the purpose of killing people. Whatever guard position you adopt, do not think of it as being on guard; think of it as part of the act of killing." --Miyamoto Musashi, the water scroll (Book of Five Spheres)

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#218580 - 01/04/06 01:27 AM Re: 2 sword questioins please [Re: Halley]
Benjamin1986 Offline
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Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 611
Loc: Republic of Texas
A claymore or nodachi could quite likely break a bo and a hand-and-a-halfer could do significant damage. However, the edge could suffer significant damage from hitting a hardwood staff. A better tactic would probably be to lock out and push away the staff while closing in for the kill. The problem is getting within the staff's range while not getting beaten to a pulp yourself.

Also, I concur that the purpose of a parry or block is to set up a counter-attack, not simply to live so they can strike again.
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#218581 - 01/04/06 02:30 AM Re: 2 sword questioins please [Re: Benjamin1986]
Seija Offline
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Registered: 12/10/05
Posts: 11
Loc: Michigan, USA
One of the ways in which they used to do test cutting during the Sengoku era was to take a prisoner, either a dead one or one sentenced to death, and tie him between two bamboo stakes in various positions. If the sword could not cut the man from collarbone to hip and pass all the way through, the sword was discarded. It has also been reported that some “Samurai” soldiers in both World Wars have successfully cut clean through the metal helmets of their enemies. I myself have used my antique Katana to successfully cut through the branches of a live wild yew. Granted the yew is a much softer wood than that of a Bo staff, but it is still one of the tougher of the soft woods. I made it clean through a branch approximately 5/8-3/4” in diameter with a Kesagiri or downward diagonal cut and also a Shin-Choku-giri or downward cut. I also made it cleanly through several branches of smaller diameter; say 3/8-1/2”, with various cuts including harder cuts such as a Kiri-age or upward diagonal cut. Of course, I had to seriously re-sharpen my blade afterward, but the cuts were successful. I hope this information helps.
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#218582 - 01/04/06 02:30 AM Re: 2 sword questioins please [Re: Benjamin1986]
SethWoodworth Offline
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Registered: 11/24/05
Posts: 34
Loc: Washington, USA
Quote:

Also, I concur that the purpose of a parry or block is to set up a counter-attack, not simply to live so they can strike again.




Above a certain length a weapon doesn't have any 'static' blocks at all. By this I mean that there isn't a block position and then an attack following it. European martial artists or Aristotelian physics would call this a movement in two 'times'. A sword or staff of enough long enough length uses a counter instead of a block, in essence a block that is an attack.

An example: Swordsman cuts from his upper right (his shoulder) to his lower left (his left leg). The staff-man blocks with both of his hands to his upper left (Ochs) blocking the line of the swordsman's attack and meanwhile strikes the left side of the swordsman's face.

I agree that some of the heavier european swords I've examined could possibly break a length of hardwood staff, but I seriously doubt that there would be enough resistance by the staff's wielder to do so.
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#218583 - 01/04/06 06:41 AM Re: 2 sword questioins please [Re: Halley]
hyaku Offline
Member

Registered: 10/07/04
Posts: 85
Loc: JAPAN
Quote:

"Although the guard positions may be divided into five kinds, all of them are for the purpose of killing people. Whatever guard position you adopt, do not think of it as being on guard; think of it as part of the act of killing." --Miyamoto Musashi, the water scroll (Book of Five Spheres)




I think you are getting mixed up. Guard in this case refers to kamae and not to parry. Gorin no Sho is not the book of five spheres It refers to the five different shaped stones signifying the elements. That's why some like refer to it as the tombstone scrolls. The scrolls unlike the rest of Musashi's work such as Dokkodo and Sanju-go Kajo is deliberately ambiguous. At he beginning of the text he clearly states that he did not borrow from confucian or buddhist quotation which was the education of that period.

In any case the scrolls are an outline that precede his actual manual for HNIR. He asked for them to be read and destroyed but they were copied. Gorin no Sho is not one of the artifacts he handed down to promulgate his Hyoho.

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#218584 - 01/04/06 09:54 AM Re: 2 sword questioins please [Re: underdog]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
Underdog

There were some tests done back in Japan concerning jo and katana--the jo is roughly half the thickness of a bo.

The jo-- "when resonably new"--even when supported between two chairs--could not be cut thu by the katana.

Jo--again, roughly half the thickness of the katana was capable of bending or even breaking the sword.

Of course we know nothing about the actual quality of the swords in question (my guess would be that no-one was using a top quality blade for such a test) nor the sword skills of the person making the cuts--so its kind of a toss up.

Addtl there is a HUGE difference between a being able to line up and take as perfect a cut as possible at a static target and being able to deliver the same cut vs a staff that is trying to crush your skull--or your hands.

Its also worth noteing that if you look at folks in period England---more people were killed by the use of staff and club weapons than were killed with the sword--speaking of attacks and assults here--not battles.

Also worth pointing out that a least one roman legion was wiped out by germanic warriors--large number of whom were using clubs vs the swords of the romans.

A bo is a very dangerous weapon.

There is also a very real (generic) difference between Okinawan and Japanese bo usage--so it might depend on what type of bo technique your looking at.


Edited by cxt (01/04/06 10:02 AM)
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#218585 - 01/04/06 10:08 AM Re: 2 sword questioins please [Re: cxt]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
Keep in mind, jo and presumably bo, aren't made of softwoods. They're made of old growth white oak. Which is to say, a hardwood of very tight grain. Considering their relatively small diameter, jo are suprisingly heavy. I'm not at all confident that under any circumstances I would be able to cut through a period jo. Now double the diameter for a bo. Not gonna happen.

But like we keep saying. Who cares? You need to cut the guy wielding the bo.
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#218586 - 01/04/06 10:10 AM Re: 2 sword questioins please [Re: cxt]
harlan Offline
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Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
A very interesting observation...about the difference between Japanese and Okinawan use of bo. Would you be willing to start a thread in the weapons section on this?

An aside, not knowing any sword art, I often wonder if the Okinawan bo forms were designed to counter bo wielding opponents, or if there are subtleties specific to countering any sword styles.

Quote:

A bo is a very dangerous weapon.

There is also a very real (generic) difference between Okinawan and Japanese bo usage--so it might depend on what type of bo technique your looking at.




Edited by harlan (01/04/06 10:18 AM)

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#218587 - 01/04/06 10:22 AM Re: 2 sword questioins please [Re: harlan]
underdog Offline
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Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
This is all far more interesting than I thought it would be. I'm working on an Okinawan kata (Shushi No Kon Sho). I had no idea when I started, where it would take me. I'm reading all your posts, SEVERAL times. Thank you.
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#218588 - 01/04/06 10:33 AM Re: 2 sword questioins please [Re: underdog]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
Something my son said when I started...

"Once you pick up the bo...you never really put it back down."

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#218589 - 01/04/06 10:51 AM Re: 2 sword questioins please [Re: Charles Mahan]
Walter Wong Offline
Member

Registered: 12/09/04
Posts: 275
Loc: Boston, Massachusetts, United ...
Quote:

Keep in mind, jo and presumably bo, aren't made of softwoods. They're made of old growth white oak. Which is to say, a hardwood of very tight grain. Considering their relatively small diameter, jo are suprisingly heavy. I'm not at all confident that under any circumstances I would be able to cut through a period jo. Now double the diameter for a bo. Not gonna happen.

But like we keep saying. Who cares? You need to cut the guy wielding the bo.



But Tom Cruise cut through a rifle and the soldier in Last Samurai. Must be because his sword was made by Shoji Yoshihara in the village.

Obviously you don't have a Shoji Yoshihara blade Charles.
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#218590 - 01/04/06 11:32 AM Re: 2 sword questioins please [Re: harlan]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
Harlan

I'm not sure that would be all that interesting to folks.

Also not sure that I would not just be repeating things people already know.

Plus this is really hard to describe on-line.

But I will give it a wack

But my take on things is that VERY GENERAL fashion the "normal" method of using the bo in Okinawan kobudo is usually gripping near the center of the weapon---some applications/methods/people "choke up" so to speak so they have a longer "reach" or comabtive distance.

Several grips are used, one hand knuckles "up" the other knuckles "down" (kinda like you would grip a ball bat--kinda) sometimes both hands are knuckels "up"

The weapon is swung with enough force to break bones and kill--and its quite fast.

But as far as I am concerned the manner of its use was not designed to regulary fight sword armed oppts.
Its use makes perfect sense for the weapons and situations the Okinawans would have faced for the realities of their specific situaiton.

Which is no surprise to anyone---all combative arts are designed to deal with the dangers "normally" faced by the people in question.

My exposure to the Japanese bo is limited--but GENERALLY they seem to have a very different method of use.

The koryu/classical Japanese method involves gripping the bo at the extreme end, one hand nearly on the butt of the weapon the other maybe foot higher (kinda depends on personal prefernce) the grip is is with both hands "knuckles up" and the blows--coming from side to side, overhand, or up from the floor are done in such a way that the full body weight can be placed behind each blow without sacrificing speed or control.

Feels very "odd" if you have never done it before--but the strikes are very, very powerful, very very fast and you have MUCH more distance between you and your oppt.

I can only assume that is a reflecton of the greater need to keep greater distance between you and a sword armed oppt.

The Japanese method keeps most of the bo between you and your attacker--you have about 4-5 feet of "reach" so to speak MUCH greater than the sword has.
The maai is longer.

The Okinwawn method seems to be "shorter" the method of grip/use only give you a shorter appox distance between you and you attacker.

NOT "BETTER" OR "WORSE" JUST "DIFFERENT"

Plus I am pretty sure that professional warriors used many methods as the situation required----I am only speaking in generalites here.

I also see many similarities between this method and the methods used by Western period halbrad users--much like I see in the use of the katana and the western hand and half sword, two handed sword, etc.

Is any of this at all helpful??????


Edited by cxt (01/04/06 11:38 AM)

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#218591 - 01/04/06 11:33 AM Re: 2 sword questioins please [Re: cxt]
harlan Offline
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Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
Yes. Thank you.

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#218592 - 01/04/06 12:02 PM Re: 2 sword questioins please [Re: cxt]
iaibear Offline
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Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
I spent some time with the jo a few years back. It is roughly equivalent in size to a pool cue and should be thought of as a short spear (jari?). From what I observed and practiced, there is no "preferred" grip. On the contrary, the grip shifts along the length of the weapon depending on the block and blow you are using. This can become anything from a two-handed strike from above, a leverage butt upper cut from below, a full-length round house, to something very like a pool-break thrust, and anything in between. You get rapped on the knuckles a lot. My sensei wore hockey gloves.

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#218593 - 01/04/06 12:37 PM Re: 2 sword questioins please [Re: iaibear]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
iai

I was taking about the bo--not the jo.

But the grip I mention is also used in jo--along with other.

Again, I am not an expert in the bo methods used across the board by all koryu arts--kinda why I used the word "generally" to indicate something in "general" to illustrate a point of difference in usage.

The Japanese bo is also used in a varity of ways--thrusting etc.
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I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#218594 - 01/04/06 06:02 PM Re: 2 sword questioins please [Re: cxt]
iaibear Offline
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Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
Forgive me, please. I know I was off-topic, but I have never worked out in a venue with a tall enough ceiling to accommodate a bo. Jo was as close as I could come. But they still can be awesome against a bokken or katana.

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#218595 - 01/04/06 06:17 PM Re: 2 sword questioins please [Re: iaibear]
cxt Offline
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Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
Iai

Agreed!

Yes they can!!!


Edited by cxt (01/04/06 06:18 PM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#218596 - 01/06/06 12:42 PM Re: 2 sword questioins please [Re: cxt]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
Quote:

Iai

Agreed!

Yes they can!!!




I agree. Jo can be very effective against a swordsman, but the jo man has to be REALLY good. The margin of error is very small for the Jo wielder. Even a flubbed glancing blow with a shinken can be devestating. Not true with a jo. The Jo mans timing has to be very good, but yes they can do nasty things to swordsman.
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#218597 - 01/21/06 12:30 AM Re: 2 sword questioins please [Re: underdog]
Demonologist437 Offline
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Registered: 03/03/05
Posts: 159
Loc: Hodunk, Illinios
It's been mentioned, and Musashi has been quoted, but in my mind it depends greatly I would imagine on which side you are on.
Saying it's dependent on your training or your opponent's training in my mind is simple; for that opens a host of varibles up for scrutiny. Not to say that those varables are
trivial of course, they surely do make a difference. But sometimes it can be rending to have imagine your opponent is skilled because of the many adjustments then you might have to make to your bunkai. As I've always thought of it, yes many more people used the bo/jo back then than they do currently, but not every single one of them were as proficient as a dedicated disciple of bo/jo would be. Or even half of that sometimes. The sword was of course then without difference.
However, as it has been mentioned what can make a difference as well whether you hold the sword or the bo/jo.
If the sword, you would probably be better trying to cut the wielder of the bo/jo as opposed to his weapon; not because of any particular riff-raff about cuting but just the fact that it's usually faster and not too much more difficult to do. Even in a confrontation greater than 1-1, it is better to kill the person so he cannot attack you further, than killing his bo/jo and he still being able to attack you further. Perhaps there is some long forgotten or secret bunkai many of us have not seen that details how destruction of the weapon supersedes destruction of the owner in any kind of confrontation somewhere, but I doubt it highly. In a single confrontation, obviously there is not exuse to just cut him and get it over with, except for maybe the most extreme circumstances where you are supposed to wound pride over flesh for a reason.
If you hold the bo/jo however, most if not all the above would apply, and as to worrying about him trying to cut in half your weapon as opposed to you, I would not worry to hard on this thought. You should be able to parry and strike the sword-wielder proficiently fairly simply. It is not difficult.

That is my 2-cents. Apologies for it being a little long-winded.
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#218598 - 01/21/06 05:56 PM Re: 2 sword questioins please [Re: Demonologist437]
Charles Mahan Offline
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Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
Breaking swords is a favorite pasttime of jo men. It is less trivial than you might think to block a sword. The swordsman only really needs a glancing blow to really mess up the jo man. A glancing blow from a jo however may be shrugged off in its entirety. There is a difference in margin of error. The jo man really needs to be better, or perhaps more sober, than the swordsman.
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#218599 - 01/22/06 08:35 AM Re: 2 sword questioins please [Re: Charles Mahan]
paradoxbox Offline
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Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 590
There is no definite size for the jo or bo. Each ryu has its own jo or bo size. Common size for a bo is around 6shaku (approx 6feet).

Sizes for Jo are anywhere from 3 to 5shaku (approx 3 to 5 feet). In my ryu we use a 4shaku jo and it is the same thickness as the bo.

I think cutting through a bo or jo would be a very difficult thing to do on a live opponent, the angle needs to be almost perfect to make a complete cut. However it can be done and you can see people cut through similar thicknesses of wood when someone makes a bad tameshigiri cut and hits the matt dowel.

In a real bo vs sword fight it may be possible to simply damage a part of the wooden weapon enough that it's unuseable, i.e. make a deep cut through it so it can no longer absorb blows.

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#218600 - 01/23/06 10:04 AM Re: 2 sword questioins please [Re: Charles Mahan]
kroh Offline
Member

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 103
Loc: Rhode Island, USA
Quote:

Breaking swords is a favorite pasttime of jo men. It is less trivial than you might think to block a sword. The swordsman only really needs a glancing blow to really mess up the jo man. A glancing blow from a jo however may be shrugged off in its entirety. There is a difference in margin of error. The jo man really needs to be better, or perhaps more sober, than the swordsman.




Hey Charles,

Does the Muso Jikeiden Eishin Ryu contain any training against a weapon like the stick or staff?

Also, I have just started to study Kosho Ryu Kempo. They have a variation of Staff technique that seems to be rare yet based on one of the methods for "Walking" with the stick.

The stick (usualy jo techniques) is sometimes used (one of the methods in which they use it) by holding the stick at the top and having the butt of the weapon placed against the ground (like a walking stick). The exponent then moves around the stick to avoid the other's weapon much like when we were kids playing tag around a light post. The main concern in using the staff like this is the controlling hand. Great attention must be used to have the hand "alive" so if it is targeted, the exponenet can move it to a position of safety away from the target point (especially if the opponent is using a sword). Very insteresting methodolgy to dealing with that surprise attack while you were hiking (lol). The trsikes from this posture seem to be more of the off-ballancing type rather than anything lethal.

Great discussion and I hope that underdog is getting a lot out of it.
Regards,
Walt
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#218601 - 01/23/06 10:28 AM Re: 2 sword questioins please [Re: kroh]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
Quote:

Does the Muso Jikeiden Eishin Ryu contain any training against a weapon like the stick or staff?




Nope. We train to cut people not weapons

Sorry. Just feelign a tad obnoxious. Lack of sleep and all.

Presumably at one point in time it was not uncommon to train for these scenarios. The waza that are now considered the core curriculum of MJER all assume the opponent is a swordsmen. There are proably still a few kaewaza floating round that address the differences.
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#218602 - 01/23/06 12:25 PM Re: 2 sword questioins please [Re: Charles Mahan]
splice Offline
Member

Registered: 01/24/05
Posts: 230
Loc: Ottawa, ON
Quote:

Quote:

Does the Muso Jikeiden Eishin Ryu contain any training against a weapon like the stick or staff?




Nope. We train to cut people not weapons

Sorry. Just feelign a tad obnoxious. Lack of sleep and all.

Presumably at one point in time it was not uncommon to train for these scenarios. The waza that are now considered the core curriculum of MJER all assume the opponent is a swordsmen. There are proably still a few kaewaza floating round that address the differences.




The Bugei Ryuha Daijiten lists both bojutsu and hojojutsu in Hasegawa Eishin Ryu. Presumably these might have addressed the matter. I've no idea if they're still done anywhere though. It's tough enough just getting Tachi Uchi no Kurai and Tsumeai no Kurai instruction. Maybe in Japan, if you studied long and hard and got up to 7th dan? Dunno

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#218603 - 01/26/06 12:00 PM Re: 2 sword questioins please [Re: Charles Mahan]
underdog Offline
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Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
How would a jo- man or bo- man break a sword? The sword/boken I am working with is the katana. I've got a variety of disarms worked out, but I don't know what the vulnerabilities of the sword are.

I think the swordsman works hard to avoid perpendicular contact with the bo. I think he would bruise the bo pretty badly but might get stuck loosing a fighting time frame and damaging his blade. True? False?

I think the swordsman does not want the bo to hit down on the broadside of the blade if the end of the blade is on the ground. Is this true? False?
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#218604 - 01/26/06 12:18 PM Re: 2 sword questioins please [Re: underdog]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
The sword breaks I was taught with a jo, involved very strong strikes to the side of the blade. There were various bits of manuevering necessary to set it up, but long story short the blade is struck VERY hard on the side of the blade, where it is not especially strong.
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Iaido - Breaking down bad habits, and building new ones.

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#218605 - 01/26/06 07:01 PM Re: 2 sword questioins please [Re: Charles Mahan]
Nik_Miller Offline
Member

Registered: 05/08/05
Posts: 28
And if it doesnt break the sword, it tends to make the swordsmans hands unhappy.

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#218606 - 01/26/06 08:43 PM Re: 2 sword questioins please [Re: Nik_Miller]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
That's very true. I remember doing it once and disarming my partner rather thouroughly. I suspect his tenouchi wasn't very good, but still. That sword was airborne.
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#218607 - 01/26/06 09:23 PM Re: 2 sword questioins please [Re: Charles Mahan]
Nik_Miller Offline
Member

Registered: 05/08/05
Posts: 28
ive had the sword knocked out of the left hand while the right hand still gripped, but both hands were about numb(useing a waster)

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#218608 - 01/27/06 06:19 AM Re: 2 sword questioins please [Re: Nik_Miller]
kroh Offline
Member

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 103
Loc: Rhode Island, USA
I was watching a video from the Aikido Journal and they had two people from one of their Expo's was doing sword against staff techniques. Very interesting in that the axial parries the swordsman is using makes for quick parries while exposing the side of the sword to attack if the bo-man was to change tactics.

http://www.aikidojournal.com/media.php?media=video

also soe cool clips of Toby Threadgill doing his thang and the systema guys throwing down.
Regards,
Walt
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#218609 - 01/27/06 02:19 PM Re: 2 sword questioins please [Re: kroh]
Walter Wong Offline
Member

Registered: 12/09/04
Posts: 275
Loc: Boston, Massachusetts, United ...
I love the Toby Threadgill clip.
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#218610 - 01/27/06 02:52 PM Re: 2 sword questioins please [Re: Nik_Miller]
funstick5000 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 759
Loc: West Yorkshire, England
did your sword have bamboo pins holding the blade or metal ones? i'm just trying to find out if they makes as big a difference as people say they do.
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#218611 - 01/29/06 05:46 PM Re: 2 sword questioins please [Re: funstick5000]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
I have owned four practice katana and had the privilege of holding and examining the 600 year old shinken of my sensei. The handle of every one of them was held on by a tempered bamboo peg called a mekugi. A metal peg would be what I would expect on a kitchen knife. There might be reputable blades like that, but I have never heard of them. I could be wrong.

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#218612 - 01/31/06 12:03 PM Re: 2 sword questioins please [Re: iaibear]
funstick5000 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 759
Loc: West Yorkshire, England
ah mekugi, i couldn't get the word menuki out of my head lol.
there are some modern bladed that use metal pegs of some-times nuts and bolts. i've always wondered wether the difference between metal and bamboo was just a traditionalist standing or actual fact. i'd try and find out personally but my mum doesn't want me to have/own any bladed weapons, specially 3 foot ones lol - i'm easing her round to the idea.
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#218613 - 01/31/06 12:07 PM Re: 2 sword questioins please [Re: funstick5000]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
Ever wonder why traditional smiths chose to use bamboo for the mekugi? It's not like they didn't have the skill or materials to make them out of steel.
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Iaido - Breaking down bad habits, and building new ones.

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#218614 - 02/01/06 11:21 AM Re: 2 sword questioins please [Re: Charles Mahan]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
My guess would be bamboo does not rust. Also the cellulose fibers could grip the elements of the handle without abrading them. As I said, that is a guess.

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#218615 - 02/02/06 08:12 AM Re: 2 sword questioins please [Re: funstick5000]
Nik_Miller Offline
Member

Registered: 05/08/05
Posts: 28
european style sword, the organic part of the grip is just there to provide a positive gripping service and deaded vibrations, it has little to no structural function like the organic hilt componenets of a katana.

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#218616 - 02/02/06 05:34 PM Re: 2 sword questioins please [Re: iaibear]
hyaku Offline
Member

Registered: 10/07/04
Posts: 85
Loc: JAPAN
Quote:

My guess would be bamboo does not rust. Also the cellulose fibers could grip the elements of the handle without abrading them. As I said, that is a guess.




It acts as an amazing shock absorber. Years ago I helped move fifteen ton machinery. I was so surprised to see them get stuff like this on the move on rollers. Then one small beam thrown under neath it would bring it to an absolute standstill. Wood and metal don't mix.

The qualities of bamboo or amazing. My father who worked on designing Rolls Royce jet engines said in some ways it was far better than carbon fibre as it had the strength of carbon fibre but far more flexibility.

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#218617 - 02/02/06 10:28 PM Re: 2 sword questioins please [Re: hyaku]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
Yeah that's what i was getting at. Bamboo won't break under shock. It will flex. Steel might break under stress.
_________________________
Iaido - Breaking down bad habits, and building new ones.

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#218618 - 02/03/06 02:35 PM Re: 2 sword questioins please [Re: hyaku]
funstick5000 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 759
Loc: West Yorkshire, England
thanks for that. thats the info i needed.
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