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#218378 - 12/30/05 10:41 AM Re: Krav Maga to Haganah? [Re: RangerG]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
Quote:

Quote:

this is definatly an existing israeli style. I think that you would have to really know your stuff to be able to tell them appart. the main reason for the divisions is political and marketing, I believe.

one thing about israeli instructors to remember - in the israeli army, being an "instructor" is not very prestigious. people who were combatants in even the best units only get about 8 weeks total krav training, and more likely 5 or 6, so the fact that a person was in the army, or was a "shooting instructor" is borderline marketing BS, it doesn't mean that he knows krav any better than somebody from LA who has been practising for a while. it just means that he may have actually had a chance to use it in real life, and that he was tough enought to get through the training in the army.




Honest Question..

If I have been taking Krav for over a year, am former military and former LEO, target shoot on a regular basis, run and weight lift... I have had more training in MA and firearms than most Isreali soldiers?




first of all, Ranger, you were ex army, you know how it is... 50% of the army just move things around or fill in papers, right? then you have artillary, airforce, navy, and to a lesser extent tanks, they really don't need that much small arms and H2H training, right? then you have line infantry, they need very little h2h, and a lot of rifle and squad and company weapon training. so then you have the special forces, maybe 1000 guys at any one time, plus reserves.

so I would say that you definatly have had more pistol training, weight training, and martial arts training than 90% of the israeli army.

I don't think that you can, in a civillian enviroment, compare the rifle and squad weapons training with what an israeli line infantry man gets, I honestly don't think that units like the 101 airborne or the 10th mountain get the same level of small arms training that israeli line infantry get - there is no way to get to that. but they probrably only get 2 weeks of h2h and then a few hours a week for their whole service.

what the special forces get is something else entirly - and maybe you have learned more different things in krav than somebody from the special forces- the training is very intense, but focused on the useful parts that will be used often and realisitically. but the training is maybe 18 hours a day for months on end, and when you do something wrong, your whole unit will lose sleep and run up hills all night with heavy packs as punishment. the quality is hard to imagine. in terms of physical fitness - we did a 25 mile hike with each 4 men carrying a 80 kilo stretcher, plus your own 25 or so kilo pack, we did a 75 mile run, with 25 kilo packs, in 24 hours in very hot weather, we did end to end 4 hour marathons (do one, rest a few minutes, do another, that kind of thing. so we were in great shape. we didn't touch free weights, though, although that may have changed.

the big differences

1. israeli soldiers live with their firearms, and are under constant threat. you get an assult rifle when you get in, you give it back when you get out, it is with you all the time in between.

2. a lot of team training, in live ammo, in difficult situations - picture going into a dark room, with block walls that create dust, with 3 other guys, shooting at targets on 3 walls with assult rifles in live ammo and in full gear - I don't think that this is how the US army trains.

3. very very intense training of the things that are considered useful. so while you might not get too many different krav applications, you might do one set of strikes over and over, for 18 hours, with one instructor watching 4 people and correcting you and critiquing you and keeping you motivated. and then the same thing the next day, and the next day.

I believe, but have no evidence, that most of the people who are in teh states teaching krav who say that they were in the special forces were line infantry, and that most of what they learned in krav, they actually learned afterwords. most people who were in the israeli special forces do pretty well afterwords, its sort of like having gone to harvard, and you either get into a government job, or a good private sector job, or you end up training african mercenaries. you don't end up in LA teaching kids krav. that is my opinion, not based on any facts other than personal experience.

another thing, related to your question, a 6 week course in krav that a special forces soldier takes in israel will be about 500 hours of training. so a year at 10 hours a week is about that. then you have to figure what is better - to have the intensity of the full course, but the fatigue you get, or the course stretched out over a year, with time to digest it and rest your muscles, but without the same level of intensity.

so it is hard to say.
does that answer your question?


Edited by globetrotter (12/30/05 10:49 AM)

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#218379 - 12/31/05 12:04 PM Re: Krav Maga to Haganah? [Re: globetrotter]
Glockmeister Offline
Member

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 255
Loc: Lancaster, Pa
Thanks for the post globetrotter. That was very informative.

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#218380 - 12/31/05 04:02 PM Re: Krav Maga to Haganah? [Re: Gadget]
ToddR Offline
Member

Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 148
Loc: York, PA
If you haven't already found this site you can use it to ask questions about an instructor's certification: http://fight2survive.com/default.aspx. Mike Kanarek, FIGHT/Haganah's founder, seems to be pretty good about answering questions on the forum and I suspect there are others on the site who might be able to give you some feedback on the instructor and school you're referring to.

As to Haganah vs. krav maga, I've studied them both--krav for 2 1/2 years and Haganah for about 3 or 4 months, so I obviously know a bit more about krav. But, my martial arts instructor who I have the utmost confidence in, prefers Haganah to krav maga because he feels the weapons defenses are simpler and more effective and because you get to see the entire Haganah curriculum in a single 4-month rotation. One of his criticisms of krav maga is you don't even get to gun defense, technically, until the blue belt level (though both my instructors jumped ahead and taught gun defense much earlier). He also liked the period updates to the techniques that Haganah employs as well as the simplicity of the system overall -- even though krav is a simpler system than most trad martial arts it still has a wide array of kicks, for example, that I for one wouldn't use in a real street fight. Haganah only has a few kicks: groin, low round house, and front and back kicks. I like that you get to train the entire Haganah curriculum in 4 months, so you work all the techniques several times a year so you gain proficiency in them and don't forget the basics because you're training advanced material, as so often happens in other systems.

I don't train Haganah or krav any longer but it's not because I don't think they're good systems but because I'm really focused on grappling. I've been training BJJ and hapkido because I think those two arts complement each other well.

You should at least give Haganah a try and see if you like it, as well as the instructor/school.

Best of luck with your training.

ToddR

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#218381 - 01/01/06 02:46 PM Re: Krav Maga to Haganah? [Re: ToddR]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
I'd say you're totally good to go either way - just ask a lot of questions about the curriculum and make sure you're getting what you want. I think Krav is more accessible because it's being taught at a civilian level unless you seek out LEO or military versions of it. It also complements other MA's really well and utilizes some of the best components of the effective ones. I don't know much about Hagannah, but to me it looks more or less just like Krav. I find the differences in disarms debatable, but then again disarms are a pretty debatable topic themselves (I actually prefer Kali knife disarms).
There are a lot of off-shoots from Krav and I think they're all more or less the same, although I disapprove of any instructor promising "real world military training" as this is flat out unnecessary for civies. I think a lot of these schools start because of the US marketing of KM, which is pretty ridiculous - schools have to pay a high liscensing fee and sell KM(tm) gear and all that. If I were to teach KM, I'd probably rename it to avoid that myself. I also read on the IKMF site that their instructor program requires at least 4 years of previous MA training - which a lot of ex-IDF guys may not have. At any rate, it's the same old story - it's all good stuff, just don't get ripped off or stuck training in something you don't want.
peace.

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#218382 - 01/03/06 10:09 PM Re: Krav Maga to Haganah? [Re: globetrotter]
RangerG Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1026
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylvania
Yes, this did answer my question. Thank You.
_________________________
"If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough."

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#218383 - 01/06/06 05:53 PM Re: Krav Maga to Haganah? [Re: ToddR]
Plantman Offline
Member

Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 62
Loc: Maimi
I've been training know with my instructor from the IKMA for ayear now, mostly either private or semi private lessons(3 hours per week) and we have gone thru a lot of gun/knife/rifle defenses.

I have seen the curriculum from the LA group and I did not see any such defenses until level 5 I think.

I'm not trying to be political or to bash anyone, but my understanding is that the LA version of Krav was intended to be very vanilla for civilian use. I also was told that the fight2survive stuff is closer to the real "Krav" IMI developed.
_________________________
Be safe, If not kick someones ass.

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#218384 - 01/06/06 11:16 PM Re: Krav Maga to Haganah? [Re: Plantman]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
I don't think anyone is going to feel bashed by that. I've seen a lot of the same.

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#218385 - 01/07/06 12:47 PM Re: Krav Maga to Haganah? [Re: Plantman]
Lori Offline
Member

Registered: 11/15/05
Posts: 66
The school I'm sending the girls to offers F.I.G.H.T and Haganah. I think I may sit in on a class or two and check it out.

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#218386 - 02/14/06 01:04 PM Re: Krav Maga to Haganah? [Re: Lori]
doctordonk Offline
Stranger

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 1
Hey folks! I havent thorougly read all posts so I hope the question hasnt already been answered. Anyways, having trained in Haganah for a year, I can assure you that they have a very strict instructor certification process. All instructor seminars are handled by Mike Lee Kanarek himself and they are extremely intensive. They are held throughout the country on a semi-regular basis even though they dont seem to be very well published. This is info that you have to get from national HQ directly. There are 3 certifications that one can have: Haganah main curriculum instructor, Insraeli tactical knife instructor and Ground Survival instructor.90% of all instructors are main curriculum certified with only a small percentange have the additional certs. They even have a military certification available held once a year!

You can verify each instructors credentials simply by asking for their very big and pretty looking Haganah certificate or by checking directly with national HQ!

I hope this helps.

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#218387 - 02/16/06 11:11 PM Re: Krav Maga to Haganah? [Re: doctordonk]
Plantman Offline
Member

Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 62
Loc: Maimi
The dude that "founded" Haganah, basically was a high level Krav instructor who did not want to put up with all the political [censored] associated with Krav Maga in the states and named it Haganah, which is basically a special unit in the military. coincidentally, Imi, the founder of Krav Maga was a member of the Haganah in the early days. So I've heard.

Amir Perets, whose dvd's I've seen and found to be pretty good is doing the same thing. He does not want to be "under LA's thumb " and named his system soemthing differnt altogether, althought when you see it, it's Krav.

.02
_________________________
Be safe, If not kick someones ass.

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